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You know, I grew up
in country like this.

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My dad and I were riding
our horses up to these amazing...

3
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high mountain lakes.

4
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We'd ride back in to some pretty
remote wilderness areas with...

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incredible streams, and meadows,
and, and wildlife.

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I love it here.

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Look at this canyon.

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It reminds me of
the Grand Canyon.

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You got this old stream.

10
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You got these steep canyon walls.

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How long do you
suppose it would take

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for a stream this small

13
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to remove this much material

14
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and cut the canyon this deep?

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This rock has a story.

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Just like I do and
just like you do.

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It came from somewhere.

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A lot of these rocks
have been dated to be

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350,000 years old,
up to 2 million.

20
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That is pretty old.

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But, it might surprise you
to know

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that all the geological formations
that we see here,

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the cannons,

24
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the layers,
even the plants,

25
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are younger than I am.

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When I was born,
there was nothing here,

27
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but the vast forest,

28
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hundreds of feet below where
we're standing right now.

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In fact, before 1980,

30
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most people had never even heard

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of Mount Saint Helens.

32
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It was in that year,
on May 18th

33
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that molten rock created a steam blast

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with the force of 20 million tons of TNT.

35
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Avalanche debris and
other flows of the eruption

36
00:02:05,922 --> 00:02:08,791
lay down all of those layers rapidly

37
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up to 600 feet thick.

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A couple of years later,

39
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uh, there were some more
volcanic activity

40
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that created a mudflow

41
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that cut out this entire canyon.

42
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It also cut through deep bedrock,

43
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all in a couple of days.

44
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Isn't it amazing,

45
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what a little bit of information
from the past can do

46
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to help change your view

47
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of the present and
the present world around you?

48
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There're a lot of assumptions
made by a lot of people,

49
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about the history
of the Earth around us.

50
00:02:44,652 --> 00:02:46,785
The question is,
how do those assumptions

51
00:02:46,816 --> 00:02:50,230
affect how
we view the history?

52
00:02:50,512 --> 00:02:52,324
But more importantly,

53
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how do they play in
how we view science

54
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and the Bible?

55
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Did God create the world in a few days

56
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or billions of years?

57
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Is humanity descended from apes?

58
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Or did God created us instantly,
in his image?

59
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Was there a global flood that
destroyed the Earth?

60
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Or is that a myth?

61
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In other words,

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is Genesis history?

63
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When we think about
the history of the Earth,

64
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there are a lot things
we need to consider.

65
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But one of the most fascinating
is the account of the Flood.

66
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Was the whole Earth
covered with water?

67
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Genesis says the waters prevailed
so mildly on the Earth

68
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that all the high mountains
in the whole heaven were covered.

69
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So if the Flood was truly global,

70
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wouldn't there be a lot of evidence?

71
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I had heard of a scientist
who has spent over 40 years

72
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studying this question.

73
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When I spoke with him,
he said he had a great place

74
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where we could see evidence
for the global Flood.

75
00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:39,245
Steve, I got to admit,
I, I've been here several times

76
00:04:37,948 --> 00:04:40,948
but every time I come here,
it is breathtaking.

77
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Uh, besides being at home,

78
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- our Grand Canyon is my favorite
- Yeah.

79
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- place on Earth.
- Yeah.

80
00:04:45,542 --> 00:04:48,542
So, Steve, tell me,
what, what do you see here?

81
00:04:48,323 --> 00:04:50,323
When we look at
the Grand Canyon,

82
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we see the inside story
to the ground beneath our feet.

83
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And we kind of have
a layered cake here, don't we?

84
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Of Strata

85
00:04:58,131 --> 00:05:01,350
that have been eroded
for our benefit

86
00:05:01,374 --> 00:05:04,327
to see the inside structure
of the Earth.

87
00:05:04,428 --> 00:05:07,733
These same layers are also in Colorado.

88
00:05:07,817 --> 00:05:10,561
Well, also in Illinois,
also in Pennsylvania.

89
00:05:10,586 --> 00:05:13,389
So when you say, sedimentary strata,

90
00:05:13,436 --> 00:05:16,436
you're talking about
the layers that we see?

91
00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:18,476
Yes. So the lowest layers
are formed first.

92
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Little sediment grains
that were mixed,

93
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separated, and flowed in here
from different directions

94
00:05:25,853 --> 00:05:28,735
and accumulated one ontop of another.

95
00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:30,095
And then, of course,

96
00:05:30,142 --> 00:05:32,923
naturally, they convert to rock.

97
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So you're saying that the solid ground
we're standing on right now

98
00:05:35,907 --> 00:05:37,907
if we went back in its history,

99
00:05:37,884 --> 00:05:39,493
- it'd be liquid?
- Yes.

100
00:05:39,540 --> 00:05:42,493
So the ocean is doing
some amazing things

101
00:05:42,518 --> 00:05:45,426
and water of, of incredible power

102
00:05:45,481 --> 00:05:48,564
is depositing the layers
we see in the canyon.

103
00:05:48,614 --> 00:05:50,786
And are there fossils
in all those layers?

104
00:05:50,817 --> 00:05:53,546
There are marine fossils
through all the layers.

105
00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:55,639
Uh, but the standard explanation is,

106
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there were 17 different
advances and retreats

107
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of the ocean over
the north American continent,

108
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and it was extended over
hundreds of millions of years.

109
00:06:05,772 --> 00:06:08,772
And what is the evidence
that you see here

110
00:06:08,186 --> 00:06:11,186
that would say that
doesn't seem to make sense?

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00:06:10,522 --> 00:06:14,751
The 4,000 feet of flat line
strata in the canyon are flat.

112
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And relative to one another,

113
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we look in between
the strata layers

114
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and we don't see the passage of time

115
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in between layers.

116
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You mean erosion?

117
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Erosion, specially,
and channeling

118
00:06:25,355 --> 00:06:29,096
uh, on any great scale is not visible.

119
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And then we look at
the strata themselves,

120
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they provide evidence of rapid,

121
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very rapid sedimentation.

122
00:06:35,464 --> 00:06:39,642
Just minutes or hours is all
it's needed to make layers.

123
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Well, tell me about
the story of these layers.

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I mean, how did they get here?

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"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life,

126
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from the second month of
the seventeenth day of the month,

127
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the same day were all the fountains
of the great deep broken up,

128
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and the windows of heaven were opened."

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My understanding is
the ocean floor upheaval occurred,

130
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- some type of magma or...
- Uh-huh.

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earthquake propelled
the oceans over the continent.

132
00:07:01,897 --> 00:07:03,897
So that's why we get

133
00:07:03,304 --> 00:07:06,638
uh, these marine fossils
in these layers?

134
00:07:06,663 --> 00:07:08,663
Yes. And we have six months

135
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the waters prevailed upon the earth.

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Another seven months or so
for the water to subside.

137
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The 4,000 feet of strata
probably represent the early

138
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and middle part of the global Flood

139
00:07:19,592 --> 00:07:21,592
right here in the Grand Canyon.

140
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We have other strata

141
00:07:22,543 --> 00:07:24,746
locally in this Grand Canyon region.

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That's called "The Grand Staircase".

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00:07:27,089 --> 00:07:31,097
We have about 10,000 feet,
two miles thick of strata

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00:07:31,136 --> 00:07:34,136
- on top of the Grand Canyon.
- Higher than where we are.

145
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Higher than where we are,

146
00:07:35,363 --> 00:07:36,816
now represents uh,

147
00:07:36,863 --> 00:07:40,863
the later stages of the Flood
and the retreat of the flood water.

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This surface was beveled by
the retreat of flood waters.

149
00:07:44,269 --> 00:07:48,059
And as the flood retreated into
the newly formed ocean basins,

150
00:07:48,113 --> 00:07:51,051
then the continents probably uplifted

151
00:07:51,082 --> 00:07:54,021
and the Ark,
of course, was landed

152
00:07:54,092 --> 00:07:56,732
in high country
in the Middle East.

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Well, there are some people
who say that, that...

154
00:07:59,037 --> 00:08:01,380
record is about a local flood.

155
00:08:01,482 --> 00:08:03,482
I believe it's a global flood.

156
00:08:03,212 --> 00:08:06,212
And "all the high hills
or the whole heaven were covered",

157
00:08:05,813 --> 00:08:07,359
the universal statement,

158
00:08:07,406 --> 00:08:10,328
but mountains have risen since then.

159
00:08:10,406 --> 00:08:13,406
And we shouldn't measure
the depth of the floodwaters

160
00:08:12,953 --> 00:08:14,961
by the present mountains of the Earth,

161
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,244
which largely created during
the Flood and after the Flood.

162
00:08:19,315 --> 00:08:23,268
Well, the fact that we have
all of these layers, um...

163
00:08:23,330 --> 00:08:26,930
would be unknown to us
if we were standing on them

164
00:08:26,955 --> 00:08:28,158
you know,
somewhere else,

165
00:08:28,221 --> 00:08:32,221
but they're known to us
because they've been cut out.

166
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How did that happen?

167
00:08:32,494 --> 00:08:36,494
Well, it was the story that
we all learned in grammar school.

168
00:08:35,893 --> 00:08:37,635
OK, Colorado River,

169
00:08:37,674 --> 00:08:41,254
over tens of millions of years,
cut the Grand Canyon.

170
00:08:41,301 --> 00:08:44,976
Most geologists have jettisoned that idea.

171
00:08:45,053 --> 00:08:48,053
It's hard to sustain a canyon like this

172
00:08:47,802 --> 00:08:50,248
for uh tens of millions of years.

173
00:08:50,287 --> 00:08:54,312
Uh, uh, you can't imagine a canyon
enduring that long with erosion

174
00:08:54,337 --> 00:08:58,337
Is that because it would, eventually,
the sides would have collapsed and...

175
00:08:57,656 --> 00:08:58,890
- Yes.
- broken down?

176
00:08:58,968 --> 00:09:02,968
Then how in the world that
we get this all carved out?

177
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,080
Well, uh,
there are a lot of theories,

178
00:09:04,119 --> 00:09:06,534
and personally,
I like the idea...

179
00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:08,642
of ​​catastrophic erosion

180
00:09:08,682 --> 00:09:11,324
by drainage of lakes.

181
00:09:11,394 --> 00:09:15,653
So after the flood,
we have these large bodies of water,

182
00:09:15,692 --> 00:09:17,723
these lakes that are trapped.

183
00:09:17,793 --> 00:09:20,793
There is evidence of the big lake
in the Painted Desert,

184
00:09:20,624 --> 00:09:22,624
- a place called "Hopi Buttes",
- Hhh.

185
00:09:22,499 --> 00:09:26,944
about 500 cubic miles
of water in this huge lake...

186
00:09:27,029 --> 00:09:31,029
And so the dam breaks and
all of that massive amount of water

187
00:09:30,818 --> 00:09:34,709
then is now pouring out
and carving this.

188
00:09:34,742 --> 00:09:38,179
Yes. And how long would it take
to erode Grand Canyon?

189
00:09:38,234 --> 00:09:39,666
Maybe weeks.

190
00:09:39,737 --> 00:09:41,893
But not, uh, millions of years.

191
00:09:41,932 --> 00:09:44,783
- Time is not a magic wand...
- Uh-huh.

192
00:09:44,814 --> 00:09:48,338
that solves all the geological
problems of the world.

193
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,527
Jettison that way of thinking

194
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,465
about millions of years
and then start thinking...

195
00:09:53,543 --> 00:09:57,090
about catastrophic processes
like you see in Mount St. Helens...

196
00:09:57,154 --> 00:10:01,100
and that will help you
understand Grand Canyon.

197
00:10:01,709 --> 00:10:02,959
Everywhere we looked,

198
00:10:03,006 --> 00:10:07,259
Steve showed me evidence of
the incredible power of moving water.

199
00:10:07,361 --> 00:10:09,939
They quickly laid down
these enormous layers,

200
00:10:09,964 --> 00:10:12,040
then quickly eroded them away.

201
00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:14,376
Steve wanted to show me
where the floodwaters

202
00:10:14,407 --> 00:10:15,759
first hit the continent.

203
00:10:15,807 --> 00:10:18,587
So he took me deeper
into the canyon.

204
00:10:20,098 --> 00:10:24,098
Steve, when you said
you're gonna bring me to the bottom,

205
00:10:22,176 --> 00:10:24,392
you, you weren't kidding
when you word

206
00:10:24,454 --> 00:10:26,454
the word "the bottom", are we?

207
00:10:25,872 --> 00:10:30,030
We are in this uh, big side canyon
to the main Grand Canyon...

208
00:10:30,108 --> 00:10:33,108
and we are looking at
the granite basement rock,

209
00:10:32,835 --> 00:10:36,129
which is the, the core
of the continent, if you will...

210
00:10:36,164 --> 00:10:40,164
and then we see the flat
lining strata on top of it.

211
00:10:39,830 --> 00:10:43,008
The boundary between
the granite rock below

212
00:10:43,033 --> 00:10:45,644
and the Tapeats sandstone above

213
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,607
is this surface we call
the Great Unconformity.

214
00:10:49,748 --> 00:10:53,748
Why, why does it appear
to be such a, a stark line?

215
00:10:53,592 --> 00:10:54,598
I mean, it's clear.

216
00:10:54,623 --> 00:10:58,891
I think it's an erosional
boundary of colossal scale.

217
00:10:58,953 --> 00:11:01,953
We're looking at something
that uh, shows the,...

218
00:11:01,822 --> 00:11:04,219
the magnitude of flood flow...

219
00:11:04,297 --> 00:11:05,541
over a surface.

220
00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:06,978
And this is just here?

221
00:11:07,057 --> 00:11:09,307
The Great Unconformity
is continent wide.

222
00:11:09,377 --> 00:11:12,377
I've seen it, I believe,
in the Middle East.

223
00:11:11,799 --> 00:11:13,393
It's over in Europe.

224
00:11:13,478 --> 00:11:14,705
Uh, it's in Africa.

225
00:11:14,744 --> 00:11:17,744
And here it is uh, under
the North American continent.

226
00:11:17,502 --> 00:11:21,471
So, we got this uh, layer,
how thick is this layer?

227
00:11:21,503 --> 00:11:22,924
What goes up from here?

228
00:11:22,971 --> 00:11:25,473
Well, we have the Sauk
Megasequence here,

229
00:11:25,498 --> 00:11:27,498
if you will,
a thousand feet of...

230
00:11:27,239 --> 00:11:31,028
sandstone, shale, limestone
that go continent wide.

231
00:11:31,121 --> 00:11:33,754
- There are four other big sequence
- Hmm.

232
00:11:33,779 --> 00:11:36,256
packages of strata
that sit above it.

233
00:11:36,311 --> 00:11:39,779
Those are also
very continuous like this.

234
00:11:39,889 --> 00:11:43,889
What we're seeing here
is rather representative

235
00:11:43,928 --> 00:11:45,928
of the rest of the world.

236
00:11:45,482 --> 00:11:48,890
It makes one uh,
really question the notion

237
00:11:48,915 --> 00:11:51,915
that this all happened
because of a small local flood.

238
00:11:51,486 --> 00:11:53,486
We're talking about
something enormous.

239
00:11:53,322 --> 00:11:57,148
The power of moving water
was beveling and pulverizing rock,

240
00:11:57,234 --> 00:12:00,699
depositing great thicknesses of layers...

241
00:12:00,754 --> 00:12:04,822
and calling our mind
to think about the global flood.

242
00:12:05,081 --> 00:12:08,384
The conventional story is
entirely different, though.

243
00:12:08,455 --> 00:12:11,504
It would say that
there is a lot of time...

244
00:12:11,551 --> 00:12:13,434
between each of these layers.

245
00:12:13,496 --> 00:12:16,115
Some people have said that
the Great Unconformity

246
00:12:16,154 --> 00:12:19,061
boundary here represents
half of billion years.

247
00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:22,100
You mean, between the granite
we see and that

248
00:12:21,037 --> 00:12:22,608
first layer of sedimentary rock?

249
00:12:22,635 --> 00:12:25,662
Yeah. They say that maybe
half of billion years there.

250
00:12:25,733 --> 00:12:30,340
Ok, and that's what their
explanation of Earth history

251
00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:33,045
would ask them to consider.

252
00:12:33,131 --> 00:12:36,131
Yet, when you come here
and look at this...

253
00:12:35,256 --> 00:12:37,024
nearly a featureless plane.

254
00:12:37,055 --> 00:12:39,348
It's not an exactly a plane,

255
00:12:39,391 --> 00:12:41,125
but it's a gently...

256
00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:42,915
- rolling surface.
- Uh-huh.

257
00:12:42,963 --> 00:12:46,180
And would that be the product
of billions of years...

258
00:12:46,227 --> 00:12:49,598
or would that be the product
of the power of water...

259
00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:51,457
- planing off a surface?
- Hhh.

260
00:12:51,567 --> 00:12:54,434
Time is foreign to...

261
00:12:54,481 --> 00:12:56,606
- a good explanation here.
- Uh-huh.

262
00:12:56,637 --> 00:12:59,637
And so we want
to explain what we see.

263
00:12:59,452 --> 00:13:02,452
Everywhere we look,
we see the power of water.

264
00:13:02,334 --> 00:13:04,717
And it's water on
a colossal scale.

265
00:13:04,742 --> 00:13:07,742
And that's the story here
at Grand Canyon.

266
00:13:07,355 --> 00:13:11,355
It's not a little of water
and a lot of time.

267
00:13:10,489 --> 00:13:14,045
It's a lot of water in a little time.

268
00:13:15,412 --> 00:13:17,506
Time really is the essential issue

269
00:13:17,562 --> 00:13:19,858
when talking about
the history of the Earth.

270
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,000
How much time did it take
to form what we see around us?

271
00:13:23,834 --> 00:13:26,834
It seemed clear to me that
the global Flood would have

272
00:13:26,352 --> 00:13:28,592
transformed the Earth quickly.

273
00:13:28,694 --> 00:13:30,694
Yet I know,
many people think

274
00:13:30,139 --> 00:13:33,702
that the world formed slowly
over billions of years.

275
00:13:33,850 --> 00:13:38,077
What was the real difference
between these two views of time?

276
00:13:38,491 --> 00:13:42,491
I needed to talk to someone
who could tell me more about

277
00:13:41,147 --> 00:13:43,584
science and history and time.

278
00:13:43,684 --> 00:13:46,178
Since my background is
in computer science,

279
00:13:46,231 --> 00:13:48,231
we met in a place
we had personally

280
00:13:48,131 --> 00:13:50,584
experienced some of that history.

281
00:13:56,984 --> 00:13:58,984
As we looked at the exhibit,

282
00:13:58,321 --> 00:14:00,321
I was reminded how much smaller

283
00:14:00,063 --> 00:14:02,063
and more powerful
computers have become

284
00:14:01,947 --> 00:14:04,045
since I first started using them.

285
00:14:04,163 --> 00:14:07,344
Paul said that changing
assumptions about computers

286
00:14:07,387 --> 00:14:10,086
were really a series
of paradigm shifts.

287
00:14:10,274 --> 00:14:13,274
So when I was 19,
I read Thomas Kuhn's classic.

288
00:14:13,235 --> 00:14:15,313
"The Structure of Scientific Revolutions",

289
00:14:15,338 --> 00:14:18,711
where he described
this notion of paradigms.

290
00:14:18,826 --> 00:14:23,188
A paradigm is a framework,
within which you interpret evidence.

291
00:14:23,253 --> 00:14:26,253
So really, science isn't
just about the evidence,

292
00:14:26,033 --> 00:14:28,525
it's about how
you interpret that evidence.

293
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:29,961
So, this room for example,

294
00:14:29,986 --> 00:14:32,484
we got so-called "minicomputers" here.

295
00:14:32,523 --> 00:14:34,523
But really, they're not mini at all,

296
00:14:34,283 --> 00:14:36,283
in terms of our current paradigm.

297
00:14:36,297 --> 00:14:38,320
- Yeah, today, right?
- Yeah.

298
00:14:38,375 --> 00:14:39,797
- This.
- Yeah.

299
00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:40,875
Right?

300
00:14:40,945 --> 00:14:44,258
So really, to understand
this question of origins

301
00:14:44,283 --> 00:14:46,002
you really need to begin

302
00:14:46,033 --> 00:14:48,289
by looking at
the governing paradigms,

303
00:14:48,314 --> 00:14:51,429
the two major views
that we currently have...

304
00:14:51,502 --> 00:14:54,705
about the history of life
and history of the Universe.

305
00:14:54,783 --> 00:14:55,822
And what are those?

306
00:14:55,848 --> 00:14:57,848
On the one hand,
we have

307
00:14:57,144 --> 00:14:58,988
- the conventional paradigm.
- Uh-huh.

308
00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:02,877
In the conventional paradigm,
you got deep time.

309
00:15:02,928 --> 00:15:05,275
13.7 billion years

310
00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:08,127
along which, this gradual process

311
00:15:08,162 --> 00:15:10,088
beginning with primal simplicity,

312
00:15:10,119 --> 00:15:12,290
ending in what we see today.

313
00:15:12,473 --> 00:15:15,473
All the complexity in life
has to be built bottom up

314
00:15:15,348 --> 00:15:17,106
by strictly physical processes,

315
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,598
where no mind,

316
00:15:18,652 --> 00:15:19,724
no creator,

317
00:15:19,787 --> 00:15:22,272
no design is present.

318
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,480
The second view,
we can call, let's say,

319
00:15:24,841 --> 00:15:27,223
the historical Genesis paradigm.

320
00:15:27,285 --> 00:15:31,357
Everything starts with
a divine mind, a creator,

321
00:15:31,382 --> 00:15:35,912
an intelligence that
plans and superintends

322
00:15:35,943 --> 00:15:38,717
and brings in to existence reality.

323
00:15:38,795 --> 00:15:42,295
Events are happening at
a much more recent time scale.

324
00:15:42,499 --> 00:15:44,742
The universe,
the solar system,

325
00:15:44,781 --> 00:15:46,586
our planet,
life itself,

326
00:15:46,626 --> 00:15:50,756
all of that begins fully formed
as a functioning system.

327
00:15:50,842 --> 00:15:52,842
It's not hard to see

328
00:15:52,215 --> 00:15:54,800
there is a radical difference
between those two

329
00:15:54,857 --> 00:15:57,053
in terms of time.

330
00:15:57,123 --> 00:16:00,123
When we look at the history
of life on this planet,

331
00:15:59,662 --> 00:16:01,662
we got a body of data.

332
00:16:01,373 --> 00:16:03,943
But depending on the paradigm
that one adopts,

333
00:16:03,967 --> 00:16:07,193
that data will be interpreted
in very different ways.

334
00:16:07,322 --> 00:16:09,857
It seems that one paradigm is

335
00:16:09,882 --> 00:16:11,975
drawing on a history that was

336
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,803
- given to us?
- Yes.

337
00:16:13,959 --> 00:16:17,818
And another paradigm is
constructing that history.

338
00:16:17,843 --> 00:16:19,843
Is that how you see that?

339
00:16:18,953 --> 00:16:21,045
We have a witness to those events.

340
00:16:21,108 --> 00:16:23,615
And that witness is telling us...

341
00:16:23,662 --> 00:16:24,896
this is what happened

342
00:16:24,921 --> 00:16:27,115
and we have to take that
into consideration

343
00:16:27,148 --> 00:16:29,064
when we evaluate the data.

344
00:16:29,209 --> 00:16:32,084
Well, Paul, the,
the reason has become s...

345
00:16:32,155 --> 00:16:33,463
serious.

346
00:16:33,502 --> 00:16:37,445
As we're not talking
about a history of just...

347
00:16:37,492 --> 00:16:39,593
boiling water at
a certain temperature.

348
00:16:39,618 --> 00:16:41,992
- Right.
- We're talking about a history...

349
00:16:42,130 --> 00:16:45,136
that deals with the origin
of the universe;

350
00:16:45,207 --> 00:16:47,753
it deals with the origin of life,

351
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,831
the origin of humanity,

352
00:16:49,902 --> 00:16:53,902
the origin of sin and
why there is evil in the world,

353
00:16:53,173 --> 00:16:55,869
the origin of geological formations

354
00:16:55,894 --> 00:16:57,894
- that we have around us,
- Yeah.

355
00:16:57,556 --> 00:16:58,884
the origin of language.

356
00:16:58,923 --> 00:17:02,376
I mean, this is a history
that is not minor.

357
00:17:02,447 --> 00:17:03,625
- Yeah.
- This is dealing with

358
00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:06,073
major, major elements of humanity

359
00:17:06,104 --> 00:17:08,104
- and where we are today.
- Yeah.

360
00:17:07,472 --> 00:17:10,620
You're talking about the origins
of literally everything.

361
00:17:10,698 --> 00:17:13,698
And I think,
if we zoom out from that

362
00:17:12,818 --> 00:17:15,060
and say, well,
"what really is the difference

363
00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:16,732
between these two paradigms?"

364
00:17:16,763 --> 00:17:18,763
It isn't a question of...

365
00:17:18,105 --> 00:17:21,359
science on the one hand
versus religion on the other.

366
00:17:21,453 --> 00:17:23,632
Because both of them are scientific

367
00:17:23,663 --> 00:17:26,781
in the sense of looking at
the common body of data.

368
00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:28,709
Really, at the deepest level,

369
00:17:28,741 --> 00:17:32,280
the difference is two
competing views of history.

370
00:17:32,397 --> 00:17:36,069
What is the true history
of our cosmos?

371
00:17:36,678 --> 00:17:38,842
That does seem
to be the real question.

372
00:17:38,904 --> 00:17:40,592
What is our true history?

373
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,561
What actually happened?

374
00:17:42,706 --> 00:17:45,709
The conflict is not between
two views of science,

375
00:17:45,755 --> 00:17:48,584
but between two competing views of history.

376
00:17:48,784 --> 00:17:50,784
Since Genesis was written in Hebrew,

377
00:17:50,633 --> 00:17:53,069
I wanted to talk to Hebrew expert.

378
00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:56,280
What was actually
in the original text?

379
00:18:04,861 --> 00:18:08,221
The first word in Genesis is "Braichit".

380
00:18:08,246 --> 00:18:09,278
Braichit uh, uh.

381
00:18:09,312 --> 00:18:12,853
Genesis 1:1 is Braichit...

382
00:18:12,892 --> 00:18:16,892
So, this is the beginning
of the Toledot of uh, of Noah.

383
00:18:16,181 --> 00:18:19,181
Just think that word Toledot
is a very interesting word.

384
00:18:18,747 --> 00:18:20,613
Translated, sometimes, as "genealogy".

385
00:18:20,637 --> 00:18:22,630
Sometimes, it's translated "history".

386
00:18:22,761 --> 00:18:24,410
And what follows then...

387
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,488
- is the account of the Flood.
- Uh-huh.

388
00:18:26,566 --> 00:18:28,005
Steve, it seems that...

389
00:18:28,036 --> 00:18:31,381
there is a lot of
history in the Bible.

390
00:18:31,466 --> 00:18:33,466
Is that how you see it?
Is...

391
00:18:32,915 --> 00:18:33,960
Oh, absolutely.

392
00:18:34,007 --> 00:18:38,007
In, in fact, the first thing is,
it is an accurate historical account.

393
00:18:37,509 --> 00:18:38,531
Uh-huh.

394
00:18:38,570 --> 00:18:42,218
The presentation is such uh,
in, in the perspective of writers...

395
00:18:42,243 --> 00:18:45,651
that they believe they were
talking about real events.

396
00:18:45,683 --> 00:18:48,683
- Okay. In...
- It's very, it's very obvious that...

397
00:18:48,112 --> 00:18:50,112
because of the way in which...

398
00:18:49,847 --> 00:18:53,214
uh, they insisted
the next generation learn...

399
00:18:53,245 --> 00:18:55,245
- you know, learn their history.
- Uh-huh.

400
00:18:55,035 --> 00:18:58,292
When you look at these
early chapters in Genesis,

401
00:18:58,347 --> 00:18:59,448
what do you see?

402
00:18:59,479 --> 00:19:01,479
Can you take us through this?

403
00:19:01,112 --> 00:19:02,136
It starts with:

404
00:19:02,161 --> 00:19:05,161
In the beginning God created
the heaven and the earth.

405
00:19:04,284 --> 00:19:07,284
There's, there's no word
in the Hebrew for Universe.

406
00:19:06,821 --> 00:19:08,268
This means,
He created everything.

407
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:09,315
- Uh-huh.
- And then...

408
00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:12,340
the next thing we find
in Genesis 1:2...

409
00:19:11,745 --> 00:19:13,745
uh, we, we find a waterball...

410
00:19:13,776 --> 00:19:16,034
- that is in space.
- Uh-huh.

411
00:19:16,065 --> 00:19:19,573
God, in the subsequent days,
is going to fill that universe.

412
00:19:19,604 --> 00:19:21,745
You're talking about days here.

413
00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:23,820
Do you see these as literal days?

414
00:19:23,723 --> 00:19:25,723
Is that what the text is telling us?

415
00:19:25,583 --> 00:19:27,667
Or, you know what
other people think,

416
00:19:27,692 --> 00:19:29,729
that this, this is just a poetic

417
00:19:29,761 --> 00:19:33,761
- uh, different point of view?
- Well, first of all, it's not poetry.

418
00:19:32,122 --> 00:19:36,290
The world greatest Hebraists
all affirm that this is the narrative.

419
00:19:36,326 --> 00:19:37,351
Uh-huh.

420
00:19:37,376 --> 00:19:41,376
Uh, and uh, they, they say that,
that one of the unique features...

421
00:19:41,046 --> 00:19:43,633
of, of the Genesis account...

422
00:19:43,688 --> 00:19:45,314
of creation...

423
00:19:45,345 --> 00:19:46,353
and the Flood,

424
00:19:46,384 --> 00:19:47,519
is that they are narratives.

425
00:19:47,544 --> 00:19:49,097
Because the ancient Near East,

426
00:19:49,126 --> 00:19:51,243
they are done in epic poetry.

427
00:19:51,268 --> 00:19:52,548
Which is very different.

428
00:19:52,595 --> 00:19:53,933
And here we have...

429
00:19:54,019 --> 00:19:57,254
a narrative to indicate
that this is historical.

430
00:19:57,415 --> 00:20:01,230
What that means is that the,
you should understand the words...

431
00:20:01,277 --> 00:20:05,277
the what, the normal way in which
these Hebrew words were understood.

432
00:20:04,372 --> 00:20:05,394
The word "yom",...

433
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,628
it means "day".

434
00:20:07,757 --> 00:20:09,757
Uh, the foundation of its usage...

435
00:20:09,785 --> 00:20:11,785
is what we mean by a day.

436
00:20:11,386 --> 00:20:13,386
It's a 24-hour day.

437
00:20:13,026 --> 00:20:18,026
The only way you'd want it to mean
a long, longer period of time...

438
00:20:15,833 --> 00:20:17,933
is if, as if you impose...

439
00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:20,870
an alien uh, concept...

440
00:20:20,928 --> 00:20:22,116
- to the text.
- Uh-huh.

441
00:20:22,154 --> 00:20:25,569
And say, well, I think that,
that these are ages.

442
00:20:25,639 --> 00:20:27,639
And therefore,
"yom" has to mean ages.

443
00:20:27,565 --> 00:20:30,565
What you have to do
is start with the text.

444
00:20:29,496 --> 00:20:30,151
Yeah.

445
00:20:30,182 --> 00:20:33,182
If we start with the text,
"yom" means day.

446
00:20:32,486 --> 00:20:34,176
So when we come to...

447
00:20:34,231 --> 00:20:37,950
uh, the passage that
talks about the creation of...

448
00:20:38,019 --> 00:20:40,308
- of Adam and Eve,
- Uh-huh, yeah.

449
00:20:40,332 --> 00:20:44,553
um, you're seeing that
as a clear historical event...

450
00:20:44,578 --> 00:20:46,578
which would stand
in direct opposition

451
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,500
to the conventional paradigm
that, that man evolved off

452
00:20:49,459 --> 00:20:51,947
of a long, long process.

453
00:20:52,154 --> 00:20:53,830
The biblical text...

454
00:20:53,979 --> 00:20:56,033
is not compatible...

455
00:20:56,081 --> 00:20:57,385
- with the standard...
- Hmm.

456
00:20:57,424 --> 00:20:59,268
uh, the conventional paradigm.

457
00:20:59,487 --> 00:21:03,117
The Bible teaches us that
the Lord God formed man.

458
00:21:03,161 --> 00:21:05,611
Artistically breeding
in the breath of life,

459
00:21:05,642 --> 00:21:07,049
created man in His image.

460
00:21:07,108 --> 00:21:09,108
And then, of course,
woman is created.

461
00:21:09,007 --> 00:21:10,119
We have marriage.

462
00:21:10,154 --> 00:21:11,588
Uh, we have the fall.

463
00:21:11,730 --> 00:21:14,932
And then in Noah genealogy,
we have the entire Flood account.

464
00:21:15,021 --> 00:21:17,021
And the Flood,
is it a global flood?

465
00:21:16,775 --> 00:21:17,775
Well, I mean...

466
00:21:17,618 --> 00:21:21,618
I don't know how many times,
I think, 35 times or so,

467
00:21:20,056 --> 00:21:23,174
the word "kol", which is "all",
occurs in the Flood narrative.

468
00:21:23,275 --> 00:21:25,354
Uh, if this is a judgment on mankind,

469
00:21:25,408 --> 00:21:27,408
then it has to be global.

470
00:21:27,275 --> 00:21:28,949
We continue through these...

471
00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:31,980
first eleven chapters of Genesis,
we come to chapter ten,...

472
00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:34,910
which is called, which is called
the table of nations,

473
00:21:34,334 --> 00:21:36,334
which are the sons of Noah.

474
00:21:35,818 --> 00:21:37,818
Uh, it mentions in that chapter...

475
00:21:37,695 --> 00:21:41,216
that the people are in their
different nations and their languages.

476
00:21:41,246 --> 00:21:44,246
So Moses goes back
in Genesis 11:1 thru 9...

477
00:21:44,153 --> 00:21:46,943
and explains how
the languages ​​develop.

478
00:21:47,019 --> 00:21:50,285
And so we come to
the Toledot of Terah.

479
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,359
Uh, and the Toledot of Terah
is not going to be about Terah.

480
00:21:53,954 --> 00:21:56,954
It's going to be about
his famous son,...

481
00:21:56,733 --> 00:21:58,052
- Abraham.
- Uh-huh.

482
00:21:58,130 --> 00:22:00,756
It just seems so apparent that...

483
00:22:00,803 --> 00:22:02,803
that there is,
there is no disconnect

484
00:22:02,602 --> 00:22:06,602
between all of that and everything
that we see in the beginning.

485
00:22:05,233 --> 00:22:10,225
It's, it's, it's just one long
historical narrative, is it not?

486
00:22:10,264 --> 00:22:12,264
It, it is.
As a matter of fact,

487
00:22:11,826 --> 00:22:14,654
the ge, the genealogy
form the structure,

488
00:22:14,722 --> 00:22:16,217
uh, not just for Genesis,

489
00:22:16,264 --> 00:22:19,264
but the, the narratives are
embedded in the genealogies.

490
00:22:18,765 --> 00:22:21,765
The genealogies are picked up
and actually call the Toledot...

491
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:22,795
in the book of Ruth...

492
00:22:22,858 --> 00:22:26,155
to establish that David is
a descendant of Judah.

493
00:22:26,209 --> 00:22:29,158
Which is required by Jacob prophecy.

494
00:22:29,254 --> 00:22:32,254
And then we move in
to the New Testament...

495
00:22:31,472 --> 00:22:33,572
How is the pedigree of Jesus established?

496
00:22:33,597 --> 00:22:35,134
With, with two genealogies:

497
00:22:35,197 --> 00:22:38,244
One going back
through, uh, Mary's line...

498
00:22:38,302 --> 00:22:40,302
all the way back to Adam.

499
00:22:40,062 --> 00:22:44,062
Steve, in the light of all this
that we, that we have seen,

500
00:22:43,379 --> 00:22:47,669
um, how important is
the historical narrative

501
00:22:47,710 --> 00:22:49,342
that we find throughout Genesis,

502
00:22:49,373 --> 00:22:52,513
including all of the, uh,
the generations that are led up?

503
00:22:52,540 --> 00:22:56,647
How important is that to Christianity?

504
00:22:57,101 --> 00:23:00,064
It shows that Christianity
has a historical basis.

505
00:23:00,103 --> 00:23:02,103
It's what the Scriptures say

506
00:23:01,354 --> 00:23:05,517
and the scriptures represent
actual historical, uh, data.

507
00:23:05,573 --> 00:23:09,393
So Christianity is,
is not a leap in the dark.

508
00:23:09,473 --> 00:23:14,299
It is an understanding that has
very strong historical bases,...

509
00:23:14,482 --> 00:23:18,190
and that our Savior
is also our Creator.

510
00:23:19,746 --> 00:23:22,823
These genealogies are
incredibly important.

511
00:23:22,941 --> 00:23:25,372
If Jesus is descended from Adam,

512
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:28,430
and Adam was created
on the sixth day of creation,

513
00:23:28,350 --> 00:23:30,854
then the Earth can't be very old.

514
00:23:30,975 --> 00:23:33,975
So where do the millions
of years come from?

515
00:23:34,666 --> 00:23:36,666
I met a geologist at a place

516
00:23:36,471 --> 00:23:39,549
where he said we could
understand this better.

517
00:23:45,260 --> 00:23:46,269
You see there...

518
00:23:46,301 --> 00:23:48,598
- the quietness expands?
- Yup.

519
00:23:48,652 --> 00:23:50,956
Nothing to disturb you.

520
00:23:51,631 --> 00:23:55,631
Yet you got the reminder that
there was an explosive in the past.

521
00:23:55,348 --> 00:23:58,668
There was a volcano back here,
the cinder cone volcano.

522
00:23:58,802 --> 00:24:00,802
And it built steps this lava flow

523
00:24:00,818 --> 00:24:03,309
that spilled out
across this country side.

524
00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:06,012
Just a huge amount of,
of basaltic lava.

525
00:24:06,037 --> 00:24:08,375
Yeah, but it's actually small, uh,

526
00:24:08,441 --> 00:24:11,711
compared to the lava flows
that we see in many places.

527
00:24:11,776 --> 00:24:15,776
And there're, there're some like
thousand of these volcanoes around here.

528
00:24:15,663 --> 00:24:17,663
And the little one
behind us here,...

529
00:24:17,214 --> 00:24:19,288
we call that a cinder cone volcano.

530
00:24:19,313 --> 00:24:22,313
- You call that "a little one"?
- Yeah, well, it is.

531
00:24:21,548 --> 00:24:23,548
I mean, these volcanoes are small.

532
00:24:23,364 --> 00:24:26,612
Mount St. Helens in 1980
when it erupted, ok?

533
00:24:26,663 --> 00:24:30,663
The top two and a half thousand feet
of the volcano blew off,

534
00:24:29,693 --> 00:24:33,195
but that was small compared
to historical eruptions.

535
00:24:33,376 --> 00:24:35,448
We can go back a little further

536
00:24:35,473 --> 00:24:37,378
to the great Yellowstone eruption,

537
00:24:37,453 --> 00:24:40,737
and some of the volcanic ash
was down in Texas.

538
00:24:40,777 --> 00:24:42,605
It blew that far away.

539
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,792
You think about
lava flows in India...

540
00:24:45,927 --> 00:24:49,497
where you have an accumulation
up about to a thousand feet...

541
00:24:49,528 --> 00:24:52,528
over an area a third
of the size of the...

542
00:24:52,411 --> 00:24:54,339
subcontinent of India.

543
00:24:54,514 --> 00:24:57,514
What we see in the present
is really only...

544
00:24:57,558 --> 00:25:01,558
a, a minuscule by comparison
to what we've seen in the past.

545
00:25:01,083 --> 00:25:04,354
And that's telling us something
about the historic past.

546
00:25:04,467 --> 00:25:09,724
We can't use present day rates
of these processes to understand...

547
00:25:09,771 --> 00:25:13,820
how quickly and how majestically,
in terms of scale,...

548
00:25:13,867 --> 00:25:16,203
the geological record accumulated.

549
00:25:16,335 --> 00:25:19,340
Well, that is the point
that has brought me to you.

550
00:25:19,372 --> 00:25:20,372
- Because,
- Uh-huh.

551
00:25:20,184 --> 00:25:23,184
how do we determine
the age of these rocks?

552
00:25:23,164 --> 00:25:24,659
Well, the important...

553
00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:28,121
first thing is to recognize
that this lava flow is uh,

554
00:25:28,176 --> 00:25:30,176
in a sense,
an instant in time.

555
00:25:29,685 --> 00:25:30,826
It's an event.

556
00:25:30,978 --> 00:25:32,832
And when that's molten,...

557
00:25:32,926 --> 00:25:34,926
you got all the different elements

558
00:25:34,551 --> 00:25:37,551
that uh, uh, come out
of the volcano all mixed up.

559
00:25:37,474 --> 00:25:39,592
And the rock starts to crystallize.

560
00:25:39,682 --> 00:25:42,295
Any of those atoms
that are radioactive,...

561
00:25:42,409 --> 00:25:44,490
they now start to accumulate...

562
00:25:44,552 --> 00:25:47,552
what we call "the daughter products",
the decay products.

563
00:25:47,534 --> 00:25:51,786
Now, the point is that,
that this rate of decay is so slow...

564
00:25:51,827 --> 00:25:53,827
when we measure in the present...

565
00:25:53,757 --> 00:25:56,757
that uh, you know,
it takes millions of years...

566
00:25:56,827 --> 00:25:59,829
for parent atoms to decay
to daughter atoms.

567
00:25:59,854 --> 00:26:03,854
And so, that's ultimately where
the millions of years come from.

568
00:26:02,893 --> 00:26:06,087
The fact that the decay rates
in the present are slow.

569
00:26:06,164 --> 00:26:08,164
But we would say
that the present...

570
00:26:07,861 --> 00:26:09,992
is not really the key to the past,

571
00:26:10,017 --> 00:26:11,423
because, obviously,...

572
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,535
the past holds
some massive, massive

573
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:16,121
- catastrophic events...
- Right.

574
00:26:16,152 --> 00:26:18,152
that are not going on today.

575
00:26:17,339 --> 00:26:19,339
In fact, the Bible would say that

576
00:26:18,607 --> 00:26:21,607
- the past is the key to the present.
- Mmm.

577
00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:24,450
If you want us, want to understand
why the way the world is today,...

578
00:26:23,506 --> 00:26:26,506
you got to understand
what happened in the past.

579
00:26:26,024 --> 00:26:28,024
So we got lots of hints...

580
00:26:27,804 --> 00:26:32,382
that geological processes haven't been
at constant rates through time.

581
00:26:32,465 --> 00:26:34,218
And we have other hints...

582
00:26:34,303 --> 00:26:37,554
that the, the decay rates
might not have been constant.

583
00:26:37,808 --> 00:26:41,259
So we've taken rock samples
from a number of places.

584
00:26:41,311 --> 00:26:45,311
Lots of samples in the Grand Canyon,
in each of these rock layers.

585
00:26:44,786 --> 00:26:46,786
I've done it in New Zealand.

586
00:26:46,431 --> 00:26:49,431
We've done in other parts of the world.

587
00:26:48,641 --> 00:26:51,259
And what we've done is
we submitted...

588
00:26:51,377 --> 00:26:53,103
the same samples...

589
00:26:53,155 --> 00:26:55,556
to more than one
of these dating methods.

590
00:26:55,616 --> 00:26:57,616
And so,
what we found is

591
00:26:57,162 --> 00:27:00,162
on the same samples
with more than one method,

592
00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:01,490
we were getting ages
that were different

593
00:27:01,328 --> 00:27:03,328
by hundreds of millions of years,

594
00:27:02,733 --> 00:27:03,459
- even...
- Hmm.

595
00:27:03,486 --> 00:27:05,860
even a billion years
in some instances.

596
00:27:06,045 --> 00:27:10,304
We're seeing huge differences
by using different, different methods.

597
00:27:10,336 --> 00:27:13,765
Well, if, if, if there is
that kind of difference

598
00:27:13,790 --> 00:27:16,281
between all of these
dating method, methods...

599
00:27:16,357 --> 00:27:18,357
then that would seems
to confirm the fact

600
00:27:18,308 --> 00:27:20,308
that we have
an open system here,

601
00:27:20,165 --> 00:27:21,165
- Correct.
- not closed one.

602
00:27:21,018 --> 00:27:23,018
And if we have an open system,

603
00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:24,750
that means,
we can't trust it...

604
00:27:24,646 --> 00:27:27,289
uh, to give us
dependable dates...

605
00:27:27,375 --> 00:27:28,890
for, for those rocks.

606
00:27:28,929 --> 00:27:32,929
And that changes the whole thinking
about the history of the Earth.

607
00:27:32,421 --> 00:27:34,296
Because suddenly now,

608
00:27:34,339 --> 00:27:37,225
these, these radioactive
clocks are not reliable.

609
00:27:37,275 --> 00:27:40,554
Uh, we got evidence that
rates were faster in the past.

610
00:27:40,613 --> 00:27:44,613
Suddenly, we, we might not be
thinking in terms of millions of years.

611
00:27:44,369 --> 00:27:47,369
We might be thinking
in terms of a history...

612
00:27:46,616 --> 00:27:48,616
that is much more
much shorter.

613
00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:51,921
But you were saying that
this kind of evidence...

614
00:27:51,975 --> 00:27:54,600
uh, is in the open literature now.

615
00:27:54,625 --> 00:27:55,632
Yes, yes.

616
00:27:55,679 --> 00:27:57,679
Why, why is it not making impact?

617
00:27:57,692 --> 00:27:59,692
Well, I, I, I've been asked that

618
00:27:59,493 --> 00:28:02,499
when I've spoken in universities'
geology departments.

619
00:28:02,575 --> 00:28:04,436
And the answer is: Because...

620
00:28:04,468 --> 00:28:07,468
there is a commitment
to the millions of years.

621
00:28:07,444 --> 00:28:11,093
And so, once people
get lock in to that focus...

622
00:28:11,186 --> 00:28:13,507
anything outside
their field of view that...

623
00:28:13,558 --> 00:28:15,452
conflicts with that focus...

624
00:28:15,562 --> 00:28:17,898
uh, is, is marginalized.

625
00:28:17,944 --> 00:28:20,944
And the reason why
the millions of years are important,

626
00:28:20,981 --> 00:28:25,046
If, if, if we go back in history
of, of scientific thought,

627
00:28:25,154 --> 00:28:27,061
Charles Lyell in England...

628
00:28:27,117 --> 00:28:31,343
proposed millions of years and
they multiplied the ages for the rocks.

629
00:28:31,499 --> 00:28:35,108
And that was the foundation
on which Charles Darwin built.

630
00:28:35,153 --> 00:28:37,382
In fact, he read Charles Lyell's book...

631
00:28:37,452 --> 00:28:40,912
and was convinced of the millions
of years of geological evolution,

632
00:28:40,937 --> 00:28:43,694
so he could say,
now given enough time...

633
00:28:43,741 --> 00:28:45,741
what we now see
happening in the present,

634
00:28:45,581 --> 00:28:48,581
we might not only see
small changes in the present,

635
00:28:47,815 --> 00:28:49,127
given millions of years,

636
00:28:49,166 --> 00:28:52,166
the small changes can
add up to big changes.

637
00:28:51,685 --> 00:28:56,685
And so, if you want to have a way
of looking at the hist of history...

638
00:28:55,597 --> 00:28:58,597
that uh, says that
we got here by chance,

639
00:28:58,408 --> 00:29:01,019
random processes
over millions of years,...

640
00:29:01,051 --> 00:29:05,051
then you got to have rocks
that are millions of years old.

641
00:29:03,402 --> 00:29:05,494
Otherwise, you'd
undermine that whole...

642
00:29:05,541 --> 00:29:08,541
that whole foundation
of that view of the history.

643
00:29:08,464 --> 00:29:11,106
So time becomes
the critical element

644
00:29:11,139 --> 00:29:12,560
- Yes.
- for the conventional paradigm,

645
00:29:12,591 --> 00:29:16,356
- Exactly.
- and that time has to be a deep time.

646
00:29:18,193 --> 00:29:20,913
Andrew said when
you study the rock formations,

647
00:29:20,989 --> 00:29:25,826
they show evidence of a young earth
transformed by a global catastrophe.

648
00:29:25,995 --> 00:29:29,995
So he took me south to Sedona
to see it for myself.

649
00:29:31,649 --> 00:29:33,850
The important thing
to note is that uh...

650
00:29:33,875 --> 00:29:37,155
this landscape is actually very stable.

651
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,412
There was lots of erosion in the past...

652
00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:41,444
- Oh, yeah.
- to carve out this...

653
00:29:41,053 --> 00:29:42,514
- whole terrain.
- Uh-huh.

654
00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:43,983
But those cliffs...

655
00:29:44,061 --> 00:29:46,120
and, and the valley floor
are very stable,

656
00:29:46,144 --> 00:29:48,277
which is why you got
the vegetation.

657
00:29:48,349 --> 00:29:50,803
Today, everything is much,
much quieter.

658
00:29:50,908 --> 00:29:54,332
Today's processes are extremely slow.

659
00:29:54,455 --> 00:29:57,455
But they can't explain
how we got this erosion,

660
00:29:57,137 --> 00:29:58,418
how we got these layers,

661
00:29:58,457 --> 00:30:00,387
how we got these cliffs.

662
00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:02,082
Alright. So,...

663
00:30:02,121 --> 00:30:05,176
you wanted to come here
because you see evidence...

664
00:30:05,239 --> 00:30:07,019
uh, of a young Earth...

665
00:30:07,075 --> 00:30:09,075
uh, because of, of what's here.

666
00:30:08,997 --> 00:30:10,997
- What do you see?
- Yes. Well,...

667
00:30:10,551 --> 00:30:14,551
the first thing we've noticed
is the extent of these layers.

668
00:30:14,055 --> 00:30:16,055
It's like a stack of pancakes.

669
00:30:16,051 --> 00:30:17,918
For example, the red unit

670
00:30:17,965 --> 00:30:19,965
- that goes all the way across
- Uh-huh.

671
00:30:19,365 --> 00:30:20,527
our field of view,

672
00:30:20,582 --> 00:30:22,592
that's the Schnebly Hill Formation.

673
00:30:22,631 --> 00:30:23,717
And above that,

674
00:30:23,749 --> 00:30:25,749
you can see the first white unit,

675
00:30:25,724 --> 00:30:27,584
it's Coconino Sandstone.

676
00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:30,834
And above that, you got
the Toroweap at the horizon,

677
00:30:30,874 --> 00:30:32,802
you got the Kaibab limestone,

678
00:30:32,827 --> 00:30:35,827
which is the, the rim rock
of the Grand Canyon.

679
00:30:35,371 --> 00:30:37,371
And, you know,
here we are,...

680
00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:39,468
70 more miles from
the Grand Canyon

681
00:30:39,493 --> 00:30:41,647
- and these layers are still here.
- Yeah.

682
00:30:41,789 --> 00:30:43,987
It's almost hard to imagine

683
00:30:44,035 --> 00:30:48,033
the volume of material
that that represents.

684
00:30:48,058 --> 00:30:48,830
Yes.

685
00:30:48,855 --> 00:30:50,761
Take the Coconino sandstone,

686
00:30:50,841 --> 00:30:52,841
We can trace it from here

687
00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:54,406
right across New Mexico,

688
00:30:54,437 --> 00:30:55,547
Colorado,

689
00:30:55,585 --> 00:30:58,920
right over towards Kansas
and Oklahoma, even in Texas.

690
00:30:58,945 --> 00:31:01,945
We're talking at least
200,000 square miles...

691
00:31:01,314 --> 00:31:03,314
- Mmm.
- for this one rock unit...

692
00:31:03,306 --> 00:31:06,392
that's consistant for miles
after miles after miles.

693
00:31:06,446 --> 00:31:09,446
That's not the scale
that we see today,

694
00:31:08,939 --> 00:31:10,892
with localized sedimentation.

695
00:31:10,964 --> 00:31:13,525
And to get a flat line like this...

696
00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:15,627
over such a large area,

697
00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:19,690
it's like you have to make
your pancake all at once

698
00:31:18,284 --> 00:31:19,744
- very rapidely.
- Uh-huh.

699
00:31:19,769 --> 00:31:23,672
And so, these layers show
evidence of rapid sedimentation,

700
00:31:23,731 --> 00:31:25,810
the, the extension of these layers.

701
00:31:25,912 --> 00:31:26,919
Well, Andrew,

702
00:31:26,959 --> 00:31:29,959
you, you were talking about
that red formation, but...

703
00:31:29,871 --> 00:31:31,871
that doesn't sound familiar to me.

704
00:31:31,484 --> 00:31:33,484
No, that's the Schnebly Hill Formation.

705
00:31:33,185 --> 00:31:35,185
That's not in the Grand Canyon.

706
00:31:35,108 --> 00:31:37,935
In the Grand Canyon,
we go from Coconino...

707
00:31:37,998 --> 00:31:39,639
into the Hermit formation.

708
00:31:39,695 --> 00:31:41,755
There's no face boundary,...

709
00:31:41,854 --> 00:31:44,802
and there's no evidence
of erosion there.

710
00:31:44,889 --> 00:31:48,443
Which means that the Hermit
formation was rapidly deposited...

711
00:31:48,507 --> 00:31:52,507
and then immediately the Coconino
that was deposited on top of it.

712
00:31:51,842 --> 00:31:52,920
But here,...

713
00:31:52,966 --> 00:31:55,701
we come 70 miles
from the Grand Canyon...

714
00:31:55,771 --> 00:31:58,959
and we got this Schnebly Hill
formation between...

715
00:31:59,005 --> 00:32:01,107
- the Coconino and the Hermit.
- Hmm.

716
00:32:01,176 --> 00:32:03,176
And, and this Schnebly Hill formation,

717
00:32:02,982 --> 00:32:05,022
800 to 1,000 feet thick,...

718
00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:08,304
over an area of a, a,
a 1,000 square miles,...

719
00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:10,804
had to have been formed very rapidly.

720
00:32:10,833 --> 00:32:13,389
If, if, if that took millions of years,

721
00:32:13,487 --> 00:32:16,487
we ought to see millions
of years of evidence

722
00:32:15,351 --> 00:32:17,351
- of millions of years of erosion
- Uh-huh.

723
00:32:16,705 --> 00:32:18,705
- back in the Grand Canyon
- Uh-huh.

724
00:32:18,228 --> 00:32:20,369
at that same boundary.
We don't.

725
00:32:20,466 --> 00:32:23,930
So that means that this Schnebly Hill
formation in this area...

726
00:32:23,973 --> 00:32:26,676
had to form in a matter of hours.

727
00:32:26,824 --> 00:32:30,824
So it told you that not only
there's lack of erosion

728
00:32:30,216 --> 00:32:32,442
but there's no time
between those boundaries.

729
00:32:32,473 --> 00:32:34,473
- So the whole sequence of layers
- Hhh.

730
00:32:34,443 --> 00:32:36,271
was very rapidly deposited.

731
00:32:36,395 --> 00:32:40,130
So we have this,
this large extent of layers.

732
00:32:40,161 --> 00:32:43,973
We have the lack of erosion
between the layers.

733
00:32:44,012 --> 00:32:46,012
What other evidence do you see?

734
00:32:45,966 --> 00:32:47,716
Well, if we look closely,

735
00:32:47,754 --> 00:32:50,091
for example,
the Coconino Sandstone,

736
00:32:50,204 --> 00:32:52,562
we see the bedding
that this bands within

737
00:32:52,593 --> 00:32:54,593
- that is, that is sloping.
- Hhh.

738
00:32:54,294 --> 00:32:56,187
We call those cross-beds.

739
00:32:56,249 --> 00:32:58,093
What they indicate is that

740
00:32:58,140 --> 00:33:00,171
you had underwater sand waves...

741
00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:01,515
were moving along.

742
00:33:01,577 --> 00:33:03,577
The comparison is in the desert.

743
00:33:03,517 --> 00:33:07,517
It is important to recognize that
there's a difference in the angle...

744
00:33:06,783 --> 00:33:07,976
in the desert dune.

745
00:33:08,001 --> 00:33:12,121
It is usually 30 to 34 degrees
of these, these sloping beds.

746
00:33:12,205 --> 00:33:15,380
Under water, it's usually
25 degrees or less.

747
00:33:15,415 --> 00:33:17,426
And Dr. John Whitmore...

748
00:33:17,488 --> 00:33:21,012
has combed the hills
around here with his students...

749
00:33:21,059 --> 00:33:23,262
hundreds and hundreds
of measurements...

750
00:33:23,293 --> 00:33:25,028
of these cross-beds.

751
00:33:25,090 --> 00:33:27,215
And they all come
in the range of

752
00:33:27,254 --> 00:33:29,114
- 15 to 25 degrees.
- Hhh.

753
00:33:29,215 --> 00:33:31,457
So it was underwater deposition.

754
00:33:31,527 --> 00:33:34,248
And so, these layers
are accumulating

755
00:33:34,273 --> 00:33:36,857
in hours, weeks, and,
and within months,...

756
00:33:36,912 --> 00:33:39,600
you got this whole stack
of pancakes layers...

757
00:33:39,670 --> 00:33:41,170
over such wide areas.

758
00:33:41,216 --> 00:33:43,320
So it isn't difference in believing

759
00:33:43,351 --> 00:33:44,961
in those layers that exist.

760
00:33:44,986 --> 00:33:47,986
- Not at all.
- It's, it's the difference

761
00:33:46,663 --> 00:33:48,663
- of time, isn't it?
- Correct.

762
00:33:48,688 --> 00:33:51,871
It's not a question of
science versus the Bible.

763
00:33:51,925 --> 00:33:53,925
When we're talking about
the Flood paradigm

764
00:33:53,952 --> 00:33:55,523
and the conventional paradigm,

765
00:33:55,566 --> 00:33:58,205
we're actually talking
about two different views

766
00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:00,327
- of the Earth history.
- Uh-huh.

767
00:34:00,805 --> 00:34:03,570
Those views really are different.

768
00:34:03,827 --> 00:34:06,827
Of course, I grew up being taught
the conventional view

769
00:34:06,561 --> 00:34:10,234
with this long ages and
slow uniform changes.

770
00:34:10,297 --> 00:34:14,469
But what was the history
of the world according to Genesis?

771
00:34:24,935 --> 00:34:28,036
Kurt Wise took me from
one fascinating place to another,...

772
00:34:28,083 --> 00:34:30,341
showing me evidence of fossil forests,...

773
00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:32,927
explaining the rapid formation of coal,...

774
00:34:32,997 --> 00:34:37,351
and talking about the complex
design of biological systems.

775
00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:38,788
Everywhere we turned,

776
00:34:38,819 --> 00:34:42,616
he showed me something new
about the Earth and its history.

777
00:34:42,743 --> 00:34:47,017
We ended up at the entrance
to an old abandoned coal mine.

778
00:34:47,674 --> 00:34:49,680
This is leftover remain

779
00:34:49,705 --> 00:34:51,875
of the Dayton Coal and Iron Company,

780
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,611
built about 100-110 years ago.

781
00:34:54,689 --> 00:34:56,254
What's amazing is uh,

782
00:34:56,279 --> 00:35:01,279
if, if you didn't know that history,
and if you look at these rocks,

783
00:34:59,799 --> 00:35:01,799
you would think
they were very ancient.

784
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,400
In fact, if we were in Greece,

785
00:35:02,791 --> 00:35:05,791
you might think
they're thousands of years old.

786
00:35:04,987 --> 00:35:08,284
It's hard to tell just looking
at the structure itself.

787
00:35:08,464 --> 00:35:11,464
Well, Kurt, then I need
for you to do something,

788
00:35:11,216 --> 00:35:15,259
because I know that
the conventional paradigm...

789
00:35:15,284 --> 00:35:18,652
looks back in Earth history
as a straight line,...

790
00:35:18,745 --> 00:35:21,917
a lot of uniform processes
and so forth.

791
00:35:22,003 --> 00:35:25,114
But, the Genesis history
is telling us that...

792
00:35:25,153 --> 00:35:27,622
it's, it's not that uniform.

793
00:35:27,708 --> 00:35:29,708
Yes, that's a good point.

794
00:35:28,778 --> 00:35:30,583
In 2nd Peter chapter 3,

795
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,726
it talks about

796
00:35:31,765 --> 00:35:33,765
people in the later days saying,

797
00:35:33,259 --> 00:35:35,259
"Where is the promise of His coming?

798
00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:36,730
For all the things continuing
as they were

799
00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:37,845
from the beginning of creation".

800
00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:39,876
- That concept that...
- Uh-huh, uh-huh.

801
00:35:39,478 --> 00:35:42,478
what you see in the present,
what's happening now,...

802
00:35:42,257 --> 00:35:44,257
what's happening
in the creek down below,

803
00:35:44,033 --> 00:35:47,033
what's happening in
every place on the Earth

804
00:35:45,876 --> 00:35:47,876
is the way
it has always been.

805
00:35:47,322 --> 00:35:50,322
It has always been
for all of Earth history.

806
00:35:49,574 --> 00:35:51,574
The passage goes on to say,

807
00:35:50,957 --> 00:35:52,486
"For this, they're willingly

808
00:35:52,511 --> 00:35:53,660
- ignorant.
- Uh-huh.

809
00:35:53,715 --> 00:35:56,463
They are not just ignorant
of these truths,

810
00:35:56,488 --> 00:35:59,074
they're purposely
rejecting these truths,

811
00:35:59,105 --> 00:36:01,302
and lists of the Creation...

812
00:36:01,365 --> 00:36:02,467
and the Flood.

813
00:36:02,529 --> 00:36:05,492
These are apparently events,
according to the Bible,

814
00:36:05,562 --> 00:36:07,562
that aren't like the present.

815
00:36:07,314 --> 00:36:07,992
Right.

816
00:36:08,017 --> 00:36:11,017
And the neat thing is
that's what we see here.

817
00:36:10,892 --> 00:36:14,361
That cliff isn't actually in place.

818
00:36:14,439 --> 00:36:17,769
That cliff, it belongs
about a 1,000 feet up.

819
00:36:17,810 --> 00:36:20,810
- It slid down to its current location.
- Uh-huh.

820
00:36:20,505 --> 00:36:23,505
- That's a pretty big bolder.
- That's huge.

821
00:36:22,311 --> 00:36:25,434
Okay now, now, what kind
of process in the present...

822
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,235
slides blocks that big down?

823
00:36:28,279 --> 00:36:30,774
- This thing continues for a mile.
- Uh-huh.

824
00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:33,375
- Uh-huh.
- But inside those rocks...

825
00:36:33,416 --> 00:36:35,484
are yet, further evidence
of an event...

826
00:36:35,509 --> 00:36:37,556
before that,
it's even bigger,

827
00:36:37,612 --> 00:36:40,682
- even more unlike the present.
- Uh-huh.

828
00:36:40,814 --> 00:36:45,129
And then, inside those rocks,
are also fossils of a time period...

829
00:36:45,183 --> 00:36:48,183
- that's very different from the present.
- Uh-huh.

830
00:36:46,839 --> 00:36:48,839
So that, according to
the claim of Scripture

831
00:36:48,629 --> 00:36:50,629
and according to
my own experience...

832
00:36:50,433 --> 00:36:52,505
you can't use the present to...

833
00:36:52,583 --> 00:36:54,708
to judge the past,
to understand the past.

834
00:36:54,733 --> 00:36:58,733
But if you go all the way back
to the beginning, you'll realize...

835
00:36:57,380 --> 00:36:58,849
that the Bible lays out...

836
00:36:58,904 --> 00:37:01,390
what I would call
epochs of Earth history,

837
00:37:01,415 --> 00:37:03,415
- Major occurence of time?
- periods just,

838
00:37:02,859 --> 00:37:04,514
just different things happening

839
00:37:04,539 --> 00:37:06,183
during each of these epochs.

840
00:37:06,218 --> 00:37:09,218
But if you live in anyone
of the other epochs,...

841
00:37:08,821 --> 00:37:11,058
- you would never understand...
- Hhh.

842
00:37:11,104 --> 00:37:13,478
the previous epoch,
because they're so different.

843
00:37:13,603 --> 00:37:16,681
The first one is
the creation itself.

844
00:37:16,775 --> 00:37:20,205
In six days, God created
the entire universe.

845
00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:22,680
He created the planets and the stars.

846
00:37:22,705 --> 00:37:26,113
And He stretched out the universe
with His outstretch arm.

847
00:37:26,158 --> 00:37:28,516
That's obviously not happening today.

848
00:37:28,541 --> 00:37:30,737
- Yeah.
- He's not creating planets.

849
00:37:30,821 --> 00:37:32,987
In fact, at the end of that passage,

850
00:37:33,012 --> 00:37:34,488
it says He ended...

851
00:37:34,551 --> 00:37:36,512
- His creation work.
- Hhh.

852
00:37:36,653 --> 00:37:40,147
And then we move into
what I call the Edenian Epoch,

853
00:37:40,264 --> 00:37:44,264
the period of time when Adam and Eve
are in the garden of Eden.

854
00:37:43,969 --> 00:37:46,969
- And it's very different from the present.
- Right.

855
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,172
We get the impression
from that passage,

856
00:37:48,203 --> 00:37:51,203
for example, that Adam and Eve
if they had not sinned...

857
00:37:50,564 --> 00:37:51,680
would have lived forever.

858
00:37:51,711 --> 00:37:55,299
It's hard to even conceive
of human being living forever.

859
00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:57,330
- So it's a different world.
- True.

860
00:37:56,793 --> 00:37:58,793
- Wildly different.
- Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

861
00:37:58,395 --> 00:38:00,395
How long it lasts?
We do not know.

862
00:38:00,308 --> 00:38:03,247
But it suddenly terminated
with Adam and Eve

863
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,280
eating of the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil.

864
00:38:05,904 --> 00:38:08,279
- Rebelling the...
- And God cursing the creation.

865
00:38:08,304 --> 00:38:10,304
- He changed the rules
- Uh-huh.

866
00:38:09,570 --> 00:38:10,999
in the, in the universe.

867
00:38:11,033 --> 00:38:15,033
Now, no longer is the sun
gonna be able to burn forever.

868
00:38:14,226 --> 00:38:17,226
No longer are we gonna
be able to live forever.

869
00:38:16,383 --> 00:38:19,383
So it's hard for us
to even imagine...

870
00:38:18,455 --> 00:38:20,455
- Theory.
- what that would be like...

871
00:38:19,822 --> 00:38:21,822
because we only see the laws...

872
00:38:21,556 --> 00:38:24,556
And we wouldn't have
come to that conclusion

873
00:38:23,828 --> 00:38:29,828
- if we didn't have the Word of God.
- Hhh, it's true if we didn't have this...

874
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:29,829
With, and, and that's what
I think the Word of God

875
00:38:27,964 --> 00:38:29,964
- has been given to us for.
- Right.

876
00:38:29,541 --> 00:38:32,900
So we slide into
the third epoch of time,

877
00:38:32,925 --> 00:38:34,925
what I call the Ante-Diluvian period,

878
00:38:34,865 --> 00:38:37,865
the period before the flood
and after the fall of man.

879
00:38:37,505 --> 00:38:38,275
Uh-huh.

880
00:38:38,314 --> 00:38:41,314
It's a world that's different
than the present.

881
00:38:41,275 --> 00:38:44,275
It's gotten the same
natural laws going on.

882
00:38:43,583 --> 00:38:44,229
Uh-huh.

883
00:38:44,254 --> 00:38:46,254
But it's a different set of critters,

884
00:38:45,779 --> 00:38:47,779
- a different set of plants.
- Yeah.

885
00:38:47,411 --> 00:38:49,411
It's a little warmer Earth.

886
00:38:49,097 --> 00:38:51,410
The continents are in
different positions

887
00:38:51,435 --> 00:38:53,011
from what they are now.

888
00:38:53,043 --> 00:38:55,543
It looks significantly different.

889
00:38:55,597 --> 00:38:58,597
Well, and that's what
we see in, in Peter,

890
00:38:58,061 --> 00:38:59,569
where it talks about...

891
00:38:59,636 --> 00:39:01,662
that world being destroyed.

892
00:39:01,698 --> 00:39:04,928
So, the Flood was not
just soaking everything.

893
00:39:04,967 --> 00:39:07,967
This was a radical,
radical change, wasn't it?

894
00:39:07,662 --> 00:39:11,662
Yes, if we're right about
what we've understood so far,

895
00:39:11,055 --> 00:39:13,078
we got continents moving,

896
00:39:13,125 --> 00:39:15,687
smashing together,
creating mountains.

897
00:39:15,722 --> 00:39:18,904
The mountains are rising
to tens of thousands of feet.

898
00:39:18,966 --> 00:39:22,349
You got water washing
across the entire continents.

899
00:39:22,412 --> 00:39:26,693
We're, we're reaping tens of,
of thousands of feet of sediment

900
00:39:26,728 --> 00:39:28,474
off of the old continents...

901
00:39:28,529 --> 00:39:32,529
and then depositing thousands of feet
of sediment on top of them again.

902
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,334
- Yeah.
- It's...

903
00:39:33,367 --> 00:39:36,792
We're looking at earthquakes
of astonishing power.

904
00:39:36,827 --> 00:39:39,704
So this changed then from the...

905
00:39:39,729 --> 00:39:42,407
what you call the Ante-Diluvian epoch,

906
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:45,580
now into uh, the post-Flood...

907
00:39:45,665 --> 00:39:48,509
Basically, the, the Earth
has gotten to recover...

908
00:39:48,548 --> 00:39:49,806
from a global Flood.

909
00:39:49,860 --> 00:39:51,860
The atmosphere has
gotten to recover.

910
00:39:51,743 --> 00:39:54,237
The geology, the rocks have to recover.

911
00:39:54,269 --> 00:39:57,269
Plants and animals have
to spread across the Earth.

912
00:39:57,216 --> 00:39:58,576
You got lots of water,

913
00:39:58,638 --> 00:40:01,779
humongous earthquake,
humongous volcanoes.

914
00:40:01,810 --> 00:40:04,037
And more or less,
that period of recovery...

915
00:40:04,092 --> 00:40:05,662
is a slow...

916
00:40:05,701 --> 00:40:07,199
decrease in intensity...

917
00:40:07,224 --> 00:40:08,934
and frequency of those things.

918
00:40:08,959 --> 00:40:12,959
So would it be in that period
that we would see the Ice Age?

919
00:40:12,638 --> 00:40:13,646
For example?

920
00:40:13,709 --> 00:40:16,326
Yes. That's ironically,

921
00:40:16,357 --> 00:40:18,357
the Ice Age turns out to be,

922
00:40:18,382 --> 00:40:19,516
in our modeling,

923
00:40:19,563 --> 00:40:22,607
a consequence of
the heating of water...

924
00:40:22,686 --> 00:40:23,951
during the flood.

925
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:25,990
The water is evaporating
off the oceans.

926
00:40:25,947 --> 00:40:27,947
- That cools the oceans.
- Uh-huh.

927
00:40:27,578 --> 00:40:29,625
The water is then moving
over the continents

928
00:40:29,650 --> 00:40:32,219
and dropping enormous
volumes of water.

929
00:40:32,250 --> 00:40:36,250
Now in certain places, the rain
is gonna come down as snow.

930
00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:37,500
- They're coming down so rapidly
- Okay.

931
00:40:37,384 --> 00:40:39,172
and without break,

932
00:40:39,219 --> 00:40:42,289
that can't melt and
accumulates into thick...

933
00:40:42,336 --> 00:40:44,039
- sequences of ice...
- Uh-huh.

934
00:40:44,078 --> 00:40:46,196
- until they're miles thick.
- Uh-huh.

935
00:40:46,229 --> 00:40:48,547
And then when the oceans
have cooled enough

936
00:40:48,572 --> 00:40:51,383
that that rain generation
system has stopped,...

937
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:55,237
then those glaciers then collapse
under their own weight,

938
00:40:55,291 --> 00:40:59,291
melt back to the current position,
and they're continuing to melt.

939
00:40:58,284 --> 00:41:00,377
Now this thing global warming, it is.

940
00:41:00,403 --> 00:41:03,598
It's recovering, the Earth is still
recovering from the flood.

941
00:41:03,684 --> 00:41:08,686
So that was really a fairly
tumultuous era uh, right then...

942
00:41:08,757 --> 00:41:11,476
and but then you have
one final epoch.

943
00:41:11,569 --> 00:41:14,460
- So the modern epoch is...
- Uh-huh.

944
00:41:14,485 --> 00:41:16,633
you can study present processeses

945
00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:17,986
and understand things...

946
00:41:18,016 --> 00:41:20,055
fairly literally back to...

947
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:20,665
Yeah.

948
00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:22,690
where within a couple
centuries of the Flood.

949
00:41:22,516 --> 00:41:25,626
And so that would leave one
to think that these processes,

950
00:41:25,651 --> 00:41:27,651
if you take it all the way back.

951
00:41:27,457 --> 00:41:28,604
- Precisely.
- You're right.

952
00:41:28,643 --> 00:41:32,643
You, you take the present processes
and extend them into the back.

953
00:41:31,459 --> 00:41:33,700
And, and that's what
2nd Peter says.

954
00:41:33,725 --> 00:41:35,725
That's the error people make.

955
00:41:35,051 --> 00:41:36,270
It's reasonable.

956
00:41:36,293 --> 00:41:39,293
Take the present and
extend it into the past,

957
00:41:38,676 --> 00:41:40,175
not unreasonable.

958
00:41:40,215 --> 00:41:42,497
So you need to go to the Bible...

959
00:41:42,575 --> 00:41:45,028
to find out the necessary information

960
00:41:45,067 --> 00:41:47,067
- to, to reconstruct it.
- Uh-huh. Yeah.

961
00:41:46,786 --> 00:41:48,786
And looking at the other way,...

962
00:41:48,582 --> 00:41:50,582
if you start from the Bible,...

963
00:41:50,269 --> 00:41:52,800
You only get the beginning of the story.

964
00:41:52,831 --> 00:41:53,441
Right.

965
00:41:53,466 --> 00:41:56,466
God has given us the ability
to read the rocks

966
00:41:56,356 --> 00:41:59,356
- and fill in the rest of the story.
- Yeah.

967
00:41:58,706 --> 00:42:01,706
And we need to, to fully
understand the Flood,

968
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,802
we start with the Bible.

969
00:42:02,919 --> 00:42:04,919
But then we go to the rocks.

970
00:42:04,256 --> 00:42:06,256
Speak to the rocks
and they shall tell...

971
00:42:06,264 --> 00:42:06,840
Right.

972
00:42:06,865 --> 00:42:08,865
what has happened in the past.

973
00:42:09,849 --> 00:42:11,278
Kurt made a good point.

974
00:42:11,325 --> 00:42:13,769
The Bible records historical events...

975
00:42:13,794 --> 00:42:16,794
but it doesn't explain how
those events happened.

976
00:42:16,812 --> 00:42:19,030
That's what these scientists were doing.

977
00:42:19,077 --> 00:42:21,077
They were trying to
interpret the evidence

978
00:42:21,055 --> 00:42:23,069
in the light of biblical history.

979
00:42:23,413 --> 00:42:26,569
But Kurt said there was
evidence inside the rocks.

980
00:42:26,632 --> 00:42:28,569
What was that evidence?

981
00:42:39,503 --> 00:42:41,503
I love coming to
the Natural History Museums.

982
00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:46,380
Uh, uh, for me as a paleontologist,
it's like a chance to go to a zoo.

983
00:42:45,308 --> 00:42:49,308
That's all the animals that
used to live before the Flood.

984
00:42:48,122 --> 00:42:48,677
Uh-huh.

985
00:42:48,708 --> 00:42:51,708
It's like a chance
to step back in time.

986
00:42:50,682 --> 00:42:53,682
It is like a zoo,
except they are not alive.

987
00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:54,460
- They're all dead.
- Right, I know.

988
00:42:53,632 --> 00:42:54,632
And they don't smell.

989
00:42:54,537 --> 00:42:56,537
- So that is pretty good.
- Yeah.

990
00:42:56,229 --> 00:42:59,229
And, and the Natural History
Museum isn't just about...

991
00:42:58,865 --> 00:43:00,583
telling us what was there.

992
00:43:00,622 --> 00:43:03,622
It's also trying to
give us a story line.

993
00:43:03,389 --> 00:43:04,389
- Right?
- Uh-huh.

994
00:43:04,021 --> 00:43:05,107
And we...

995
00:43:05,145 --> 00:43:08,145
we got two possibilities,
we got these two paradigms

996
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:10,559
between a naturalistic view
and a, a biblical view.

997
00:43:10,497 --> 00:43:13,497
And all the Natural History
Museums in the country,

998
00:43:12,614 --> 00:43:14,614
most of them around the world,

999
00:43:13,879 --> 00:43:14,934
all give you just...

1000
00:43:14,965 --> 00:43:16,965
- one of those views.
- Uh-huh.

1001
00:43:16,703 --> 00:43:20,625
Only giving you a naturalistic
old Earth view of the world.

1002
00:43:20,651 --> 00:43:22,261
But the same data,...

1003
00:43:22,331 --> 00:43:23,550
this dinosaur,

1004
00:43:23,581 --> 00:43:25,386
is able to be understood

1005
00:43:25,432 --> 00:43:27,206
in an alternate paradigm.

1006
00:43:27,268 --> 00:43:30,268
So when I'm thinking about
these types of creatures,

1007
00:43:29,872 --> 00:43:32,872
I'm thinking about a world
just right before the Flood.

1008
00:43:32,536 --> 00:43:35,536
I mean, this is a real picture
of a violent world.

1009
00:43:35,059 --> 00:43:36,253
- Yeah. And...
- Yeah.

1010
00:43:36,278 --> 00:43:39,278
This is why God said:
"Behold, the end of all flush".

1011
00:43:38,659 --> 00:43:40,659
- It wasn't just mankind.
- Uh-huh.

1012
00:43:40,296 --> 00:43:43,296
Man and all the animals
on which we rule...

1013
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,900
- are juged at the time of the Flood.
- Uh-huh. Yeah.

1014
00:43:45,744 --> 00:43:49,145
Well, Marcus, can you kind of
give us an overall picture...

1015
00:43:49,221 --> 00:43:52,713
of the fossils and how
all these stuffs fit together?

1016
00:43:52,738 --> 00:43:53,392
Yeah.

1017
00:43:53,424 --> 00:43:56,424
Fossils tend to be found
in distinct layers where the...

1018
00:43:55,939 --> 00:43:58,267
very, very large numbers
that have been destroyed.

1019
00:43:58,322 --> 00:43:59,799
Untold billions.

1020
00:44:00,049 --> 00:44:02,049
And so every time we see

1021
00:44:01,549 --> 00:44:03,549
a layer of rock that this thick,...

1022
00:44:03,478 --> 00:44:06,775
we're thinking about an event
that probably took minutes...

1023
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:07,907
- to, to make. Not...
- Hhh.

1024
00:44:07,916 --> 00:44:09,174
thousands of years.

1025
00:44:09,203 --> 00:44:11,203
Minutes for just this
one package of rocks.

1026
00:44:11,191 --> 00:44:12,549
Sometimes, even seconds.

1027
00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:15,580
Now, where these pulses
of water from the Flood are...

1028
00:44:15,168 --> 00:44:16,809
moving over the continents,

1029
00:44:16,848 --> 00:44:18,444
grabbing ecosystems,

1030
00:44:18,469 --> 00:44:22,082
or dragging marine ones up
from, from deeper in the ocean...

1031
00:44:22,123 --> 00:44:23,600
and pulling them onto land.

1032
00:44:23,632 --> 00:44:26,632
And as one gets deposited,
and the waves come back,

1033
00:44:25,898 --> 00:44:28,898
They start pulling and piling
additional stuffs on top of that.

1034
00:44:28,734 --> 00:44:33,734
And it's, it's a graveyard on top
of a graveyard on top of a graveyard.

1035
00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:36,900
It's, it's a sort of thing
that speaks to a catastrophe,

1036
00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:38,620
not the sort of thing
where the fossil record

1037
00:44:37,494 --> 00:44:38,986
is gradually accumulating

1038
00:44:39,017 --> 00:44:41,017
bone by bone,
shell by shell,

1039
00:44:40,753 --> 00:44:41,753
- little by little,
- Uh-huh.

1040
00:44:41,736 --> 00:44:43,392
over untold eons of time.

1041
00:44:43,628 --> 00:44:45,628
So you're saying that
we have these...

1042
00:44:45,627 --> 00:44:48,259
uh, marine fossils all over,

1043
00:44:48,284 --> 00:44:49,994
- even on mountains.
- Yes.

1044
00:44:50,041 --> 00:44:52,137
Yeah, further back over
uh, in the Museum,

1045
00:44:52,162 --> 00:44:54,162
they got sections
with things like mosasaurs,

1046
00:44:53,981 --> 00:44:56,035
- big swimming reptiles.
- Hhh.

1047
00:44:56,137 --> 00:44:57,973
Mosasaurs are globally distributed.

1048
00:44:57,998 --> 00:45:00,435
And, and they're distributed
on continents.

1049
00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:02,460
So looking at these things,
you're saying:

1050
00:45:02,138 --> 00:45:04,138
what is it that has the power,

1051
00:45:03,633 --> 00:45:05,633
what is it that has, has a capacity

1052
00:45:05,366 --> 00:45:06,677
to take the marine world

1053
00:45:06,702 --> 00:45:08,787
and throw it on top
of the continents

1054
00:45:08,819 --> 00:45:10,819
in such violent and
destructive manner.

1055
00:45:10,501 --> 00:45:13,501
And, and the Flood makes
perfect sense with this.

1056
00:45:12,628 --> 00:45:14,628
When we were in
the Grand Canyon,

1057
00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:16,667
we saw that Great Unconformity.

1058
00:45:16,692 --> 00:45:18,692
- Yeah.
- And there were no fossils

1059
00:45:18,496 --> 00:45:20,496
to speak of really below that.

1060
00:45:20,068 --> 00:45:23,068
And then all of the sudden,
we start getting a lot.

1061
00:45:22,782 --> 00:45:25,782
What, what does that say
to you as a paleontologist?

1062
00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:27,690
Well, the Great Unconformity is telling me

1063
00:45:27,439 --> 00:45:29,439
that there's some sort of
massive erosion

1064
00:45:29,434 --> 00:45:31,636
and sheering that is happening
across the continent.

1065
00:45:31,667 --> 00:45:34,667
And then once we start getting
to those nice sedimentary rocks,

1066
00:45:34,620 --> 00:45:36,622
they have all the wonderful
fossils in them.

1067
00:45:36,686 --> 00:45:39,816
The pattern uh, starts to emerge.

1068
00:45:39,841 --> 00:45:43,148
The ecosystem that has
the first animal tenet

1069
00:45:43,173 --> 00:45:44,562
shows up very suddenly.

1070
00:45:44,601 --> 00:45:46,111
In conventional Paleontology,

1071
00:45:46,136 --> 00:45:48,189
they call this
the Cambrianic Explosion.

1072
00:45:48,281 --> 00:45:51,281
It's the first appearance
of a wide diversity

1073
00:45:50,624 --> 00:45:52,624
of different types
of marine animals.

1074
00:45:52,501 --> 00:45:55,501
All of the sudden, you have
this complex and whole ecosystem

1075
00:45:54,978 --> 00:45:57,220
that shows up,
basically, out of nowhere.

1076
00:45:57,259 --> 00:46:00,259
Now that makes perfect sense from
the Creation and Flood perspective

1077
00:46:00,017 --> 00:46:02,594
because the Flood is about
destroying ecosystems.

1078
00:46:02,658 --> 00:46:04,181
Whereas in the evolutionary view,

1079
00:46:04,212 --> 00:46:07,212
uh, these ecosystems are
going to have to arise

1080
00:46:07,033 --> 00:46:08,478
a little more gradually

1081
00:46:08,517 --> 00:46:10,910
as organism diversify evolve

1082
00:46:10,935 --> 00:46:13,292
and respond to one another
in their environment.

1083
00:46:13,339 --> 00:46:15,339
But that's not what you see.

1084
00:46:14,552 --> 00:46:16,089
Instead, you see...

1085
00:46:16,176 --> 00:46:17,949
an explosion of life...

1086
00:46:18,074 --> 00:46:19,777
that is complex,

1087
00:46:19,808 --> 00:46:20,816
whole,

1088
00:46:20,847 --> 00:46:22,943
the ecosystem is integrated
with one another.

1089
00:46:22,968 --> 00:46:25,968
You can see where all
the different organisms fit,

1090
00:46:25,435 --> 00:46:27,435
- Uh-huh.
- with respect to one another.

1091
00:46:27,124 --> 00:46:30,138
And that's just the first
time that that happens.

1092
00:46:30,318 --> 00:46:33,318
Every time you move up
in the geological column,

1093
00:46:32,607 --> 00:46:34,007
in this fossil record,

1094
00:46:34,046 --> 00:46:37,132
you start seeing snapshots of
more and more ecosystems.

1095
00:46:37,164 --> 00:46:39,336
You got one ecosystem that is destroyed,

1096
00:46:39,391 --> 00:46:41,391
and then you got another one.

1097
00:46:40,573 --> 00:46:42,573
It's gotten slightly different creatures,

1098
00:46:42,281 --> 00:46:44,305
there're different interactions going on.

1099
00:46:44,351 --> 00:46:46,351
And as the floodwaters
move higher and higher,

1100
00:46:46,267 --> 00:46:49,267
they're getting closer
and closer to the shore,

1101
00:46:48,216 --> 00:46:50,584
destroying more and more
organisms in the shoreline,

1102
00:46:50,609 --> 00:46:52,921
- and eventually up onto land.
- Yeah.

1103
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,080
So I, I think I see
what you're saying here.

1104
00:46:55,536 --> 00:46:58,536
And that is,
it's, it's the paradigm

1105
00:46:57,539 --> 00:46:59,539
that uh, we're all taught,

1106
00:46:59,182 --> 00:47:00,749
that conventional paradigm...

1107
00:47:00,804 --> 00:47:03,804
is trying to tell us that
the fossil record is...

1108
00:47:03,460 --> 00:47:07,465
an evolutionary picture
of life as it's developing...

1109
00:47:07,518 --> 00:47:11,104
as oppose to the Genesis
paradigm that is saying no,

1110
00:47:11,129 --> 00:47:14,129
all of that life,
all the complexity of life

1111
00:47:13,528 --> 00:47:15,019
- already was there...
- Yeah.

1112
00:47:15,044 --> 00:47:19,044
and now, we're looking at
the graveyard of all that life.

1113
00:47:18,115 --> 00:47:19,170
Exactly.

1114
00:47:19,195 --> 00:47:21,195
Well, what are some other data

1115
00:47:20,864 --> 00:47:24,245
that you're seeing that,
that convinces you of this paradigm?

1116
00:47:24,272 --> 00:47:27,897
Sure. Well, one very curious
situation with the fossil record,

1117
00:47:27,922 --> 00:47:30,374
so if you're thinking
vertically about things,

1118
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,400
it, it's not the hard parts
of the animal,

1119
00:47:32,699 --> 00:47:34,855
but the trackways.

1120
00:47:34,903 --> 00:47:36,144
They are the footprints.

1121
00:47:36,186 --> 00:47:39,186
This is a pattern that we see
in several different groups,

1122
00:47:38,835 --> 00:47:42,245
where their footprints are first
and body parts are later.

1123
00:47:42,277 --> 00:47:43,041
Uh-huh.

1124
00:47:43,066 --> 00:47:46,066
For the trilobites, for the amphibians,
for the dinosaurs,

1125
00:47:45,550 --> 00:47:49,550
the first time I find evidence
of them in the fossil record

1126
00:47:48,330 --> 00:47:49,644
is from trackways,

1127
00:47:49,691 --> 00:47:51,511
- not hard parts.
- Interesting.

1128
00:47:51,655 --> 00:47:53,097
From an old Earth perspective,

1129
00:47:53,122 --> 00:47:56,122
that's really weird
and hard to grapple with,

1130
00:47:56,042 --> 00:47:58,168
because you have millions of years...

1131
00:47:58,203 --> 00:48:00,135
between the trackway production...

1132
00:48:00,182 --> 00:48:01,236
and ultimately,

1133
00:48:01,261 --> 00:48:03,261
- the animal that made it.
- Uh-huh.

1134
00:48:02,706 --> 00:48:05,706
But that obviously doesn't
make a whole lot of sense.

1135
00:48:05,035 --> 00:48:08,035
Uh, because if there're trackways,
there are animals.

1136
00:48:06,894 --> 00:48:09,894
And these animals have bones
and teeth and shells to them.

1137
00:48:09,244 --> 00:48:10,924
Why  aren't they fossilized?

1138
00:48:10,955 --> 00:48:13,142
Instead, the pattern is telling us
something different.

1139
00:48:13,167 --> 00:48:14,314
There's no time...

1140
00:48:14,361 --> 00:48:17,361
between when somebody leaves a track
and when somebody gets buried.

1141
00:48:17,111 --> 00:48:20,111
But the fact that those
trackways are still there,

1142
00:48:19,675 --> 00:48:22,675
that, that should tell us
something as well, shouldn't it?

1143
00:48:22,026 --> 00:48:24,026
One, it tells us that the deposition

1144
00:48:23,785 --> 00:48:27,785
or the, the placement of
the next layer on top of them

1145
00:48:26,463 --> 00:48:28,463
had to happen very, very quickly.

1146
00:48:28,353 --> 00:48:33,353
Because, again, you go on to uh,
a beach and you walk in the sand,

1147
00:48:31,877 --> 00:48:33,822
your trackways are, are destroyed

1148
00:48:33,854 --> 00:48:35,854
- very, very quickly.
- Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

1149
00:48:35,611 --> 00:48:39,611
But the fossil record is showing us
something very different from today.

1150
00:48:38,659 --> 00:48:40,659
This is death in a moment.

1151
00:48:40,058 --> 00:48:42,058
- Yes.
- This is death in an instant.

1152
00:48:41,371 --> 00:48:44,371
And we're talking about
a, a world that was complex,

1153
00:48:44,228 --> 00:48:45,635
whole, integrated,

1154
00:48:45,705 --> 00:48:49,275
and the Flood is destroying
that world, sequentially,...

1155
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:52,300
- and burying it in a vertical fashion.
- Uh-huh. Yeah.

1156
00:48:51,908 --> 00:48:53,036
And so I think,

1157
00:48:53,084 --> 00:48:56,084
looking at the fossil record
as a record of life is...

1158
00:48:56,068 --> 00:48:57,263
partly correct.

1159
00:48:57,318 --> 00:48:59,318
But it's not about life development.

1160
00:48:58,968 --> 00:49:02,099
It's about life attempts
to survive an event...

1161
00:49:02,138 --> 00:49:04,672
that ultimately consumed all of them.

1162
00:49:04,771 --> 00:49:06,771
Well, that would make sense then,

1163
00:49:06,126 --> 00:49:10,766
because, when God was talking
about destroying the Earth...

1164
00:49:10,791 --> 00:49:11,877
uh, with the flood,

1165
00:49:11,902 --> 00:49:14,902
it wasn't just
the destruction of human life,

1166
00:49:14,462 --> 00:49:17,019
it was the destruction of all life.

1167
00:49:17,044 --> 00:49:19,367
And so, now the world we live in

1168
00:49:19,392 --> 00:49:20,655
is, as you said,

1169
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:21,687
radically different

1170
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,719
- than what that was before.
- Yeah.

1171
00:49:23,359 --> 00:49:27,359
When we look at the T-Rex,
when we look at the Mosasaur,

1172
00:49:25,853 --> 00:49:26,953
when we look at...

1173
00:49:27,008 --> 00:49:29,219
uh, all these animals
as ferocious carnivores,

1174
00:49:29,244 --> 00:49:30,247
and they really are.

1175
00:49:30,303 --> 00:49:31,779
I mean, they terrify.

1176
00:49:31,804 --> 00:49:34,825
But that's not what they were
initially created to be.

1177
00:49:34,872 --> 00:49:36,724
And so these sharp teeth,

1178
00:49:36,771 --> 00:49:38,217
these devastating claws,

1179
00:49:38,247 --> 00:49:40,247
and the behaviors
that go along with them,

1180
00:49:40,036 --> 00:49:42,036
all seem to be part of the curse.

1181
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:43,990
And part of that is genetic.

1182
00:49:43,333 --> 00:49:46,333
Part of it might also be
just thru some modifications.

1183
00:49:45,991 --> 00:49:48,068
- But, uh, these organisms...
- Uh-huh.

1184
00:49:48,130 --> 00:49:50,130
by the time we see them,

1185
00:49:49,741 --> 00:49:51,741
and it is important for us to remember

1186
00:49:51,312 --> 00:49:53,312
when we come to
a Natural History Museum,

1187
00:49:52,874 --> 00:49:55,874
that you're not seeing
the world at creation week.

1188
00:49:54,984 --> 00:49:55,593
Right.

1189
00:49:55,624 --> 00:49:56,765
You're seeing the world...

1190
00:49:56,802 --> 00:49:58,802
as it existed in the Flood.

1191
00:49:58,797 --> 00:50:01,852
And that world was the one
that was filled with violence,

1192
00:50:01,879 --> 00:50:04,984
and was, was a pretty
terrible place to live.

1193
00:50:05,766 --> 00:50:09,491
I realized that the billions of
creatures buried in those layers

1194
00:50:09,516 --> 00:50:13,031
are a silent testimony
to God's global judgment.

1195
00:50:13,125 --> 00:50:17,445
I decided I wanted to see one of
those layers of fossils for myself.

1196
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,563
If dinosaurs died suddenly in the Flood,

1197
00:50:20,642 --> 00:50:22,789
wouldn't that be obvious?

1198
00:50:29,225 --> 00:50:31,225
What we're dealing with here,

1199
00:50:30,836 --> 00:50:32,866
this is in the Lance Formation.

1200
00:50:32,912 --> 00:50:37,125
This is a "Upper Cretaceous"
sedimentary deposit.

1201
00:50:37,170 --> 00:50:41,170
And what we have here is
what's called the bone-beds.

1202
00:50:40,093 --> 00:50:42,681
It's, it's, an accumulation of bones...

1203
00:50:42,728 --> 00:50:44,728
that's about a meter thick,

1204
00:50:44,109 --> 00:50:46,109
a little less than a meter,

1205
00:50:45,617 --> 00:50:46,853
and in this meter,

1206
00:50:46,878 --> 00:50:49,878
we find the bones present
as a graded bed,

1207
00:50:49,416 --> 00:50:53,416
with little bones at the top and
bigger bones at the bottom.

1208
00:50:52,799 --> 00:50:54,275
And you can see here,...

1209
00:50:54,322 --> 00:50:55,541
looks like,...

1210
00:50:55,601 --> 00:50:58,002
Erline is working on
another vertebrate.

1211
00:50:58,027 --> 00:51:01,582
Here, this is a cervical vertebra
of a duckbill dinosaur.

1212
00:51:01,613 --> 00:51:03,824
This is where the spinal cord goes.

1213
00:51:03,849 --> 00:51:05,460
- Right there.
- Hhh. Uh-huh.

1214
00:51:05,499 --> 00:51:09,499
When I, when I look at
these bones in the quarry, I...

1215
00:51:08,428 --> 00:51:10,498
I often I think of them as being...

1216
00:51:10,545 --> 00:51:12,340
- inside the animal alive.
- Oh.

1217
00:51:12,373 --> 00:51:14,373
- And just imagine what is,
- Sure.

1218
00:51:13,795 --> 00:51:14,939
what is like to be...

1219
00:51:14,964 --> 00:51:17,154
seeing these bones
for the first time.

1220
00:51:17,337 --> 00:51:19,550
So, so this is just full of bones.

1221
00:51:19,581 --> 00:51:24,581
And, and it's not like we have to go
looking for where the bones are.

1222
00:51:23,176 --> 00:51:26,214
We just have to sit down
and start digging.

1223
00:51:27,379 --> 00:51:29,792
What is mainly different about...

1224
00:51:29,827 --> 00:51:31,829
the site that you're digging here,

1225
00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:33,860
as oppose to,
what we would say,

1226
00:51:33,690 --> 00:51:36,337
a general dinosaur dig somewhere?

1227
00:51:36,921 --> 00:51:39,921
Well, there're, there're dinosaurs
found all over the world,

1228
00:51:39,665 --> 00:51:42,306
but, this particular site is unique,...

1229
00:51:42,345 --> 00:51:44,923
in there is probably one of the largest

1230
00:51:44,978 --> 00:51:47,033
collections of bones in the world.

1231
00:51:47,133 --> 00:51:49,133
And there are the remains of, between,

1232
00:51:49,128 --> 00:51:52,128
I would say, between
5,000 and 10,000 animals,

1233
00:51:51,896 --> 00:51:54,183
each 20 to 40 feet long,

1234
00:51:54,214 --> 00:51:55,746
in this, in this deposit.

1235
00:51:55,790 --> 00:51:57,185
These are big animals,

1236
00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,240
- and there are a lot of them.
- Uh-huh.

1237
00:51:59,154 --> 00:52:02,154
- Let's step back for just a second.
- Okay.

1238
00:52:01,786 --> 00:52:05,258
Okay, so we had,
we had a duckbill dinosaur

1239
00:52:05,289 --> 00:52:06,524
roaming around the Earth.

1240
00:52:06,555 --> 00:52:08,555
And all of the sudden, it dies.

1241
00:52:08,176 --> 00:52:09,796
Would it become a fossil?

1242
00:52:10,100 --> 00:52:13,843
Fossilization requires
very special circumstances.

1243
00:52:13,868 --> 00:52:15,500
Normally, we know,

1244
00:52:15,571 --> 00:52:19,571
for example,  if a coy...,
if a coyote dies on the desert,

1245
00:52:18,432 --> 00:52:20,692
its, its body is soon gone.

1246
00:52:20,754 --> 00:52:23,696
Yet these bones are
all perfectly preserved.

1247
00:52:23,721 --> 00:52:25,721
They have never been
subjected to the weather,

1248
00:52:25,703 --> 00:52:27,703
they are just all there,
They're...

1249
00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:31,430
Today, it would be very difficult
to imagine how you could do that.

1250
00:52:30,549 --> 00:52:33,165
To some extent,
we would really say that

1251
00:52:33,190 --> 00:52:35,221
to find a fossil is rare.

1252
00:52:35,252 --> 00:52:37,252
Eventhough, we have
many, many fossils,

1253
00:52:36,871 --> 00:52:38,871
in terms of things that die,

1254
00:52:38,694 --> 00:52:41,694
- Right.
- it's rare if it'd become fossilized.

1255
00:52:41,105 --> 00:52:42,105
It is rare.

1256
00:52:41,916 --> 00:52:44,432
- It requires special circumstances.
- Uh-huh.

1257
00:52:44,463 --> 00:52:47,463
Not, not the least of which
is the rapid burial.

1258
00:52:46,776 --> 00:52:47,432
Hhh.

1259
00:52:47,457 --> 00:52:49,842
These, these animals had to die...

1260
00:52:49,959 --> 00:52:52,959
and then their carcasses
had to have time to rot.

1261
00:52:52,851 --> 00:52:55,851
So, we're talking days
or weeks or months...

1262
00:52:55,732 --> 00:52:59,404
during which time, the,
the bones and tissues

1263
00:52:59,429 --> 00:53:01,853
were either eaten away
or rotten away.

1264
00:53:01,931 --> 00:53:04,126
and then the bones or remains

1265
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,551
were deposited instantaneously
in, in this environment.

1266
00:53:07,597 --> 00:53:09,597
Because they're in a graded bed

1267
00:53:09,411 --> 00:53:13,411
where big bones at the bottom
and little bones at the top.

1268
00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:13,630
And you can see that here.

1269
00:53:12,786 --> 00:53:16,786
- The big bones are all down at the bottom.
- Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

1270
00:53:14,794 --> 00:53:18,794
And when they start digging up here,
they start to find small bones.

1271
00:53:18,254 --> 00:53:22,105
So that condition requires
a sorting process.

1272
00:53:22,136 --> 00:53:25,871
It can only take place during
a catastrophic emplacement.

1273
00:53:25,988 --> 00:53:28,785
So when we look at
the dinosaur fossils,

1274
00:53:28,816 --> 00:53:31,287
rather than looking at them
from the standpoint

1275
00:53:31,312 --> 00:53:33,412
that we have early dinosaurs,

1276
00:53:33,445 --> 00:53:36,701
then middle dinosaurs,
and later dinosaurs,

1277
00:53:36,869 --> 00:53:38,095
you're looking at proof

1278
00:53:38,127 --> 00:53:40,650
from the perspective
that all those dinosaurs

1279
00:53:40,674 --> 00:53:41,916
were in existence.

1280
00:53:41,947 --> 00:53:43,244
They were all living,

1281
00:53:43,291 --> 00:53:45,720
and then there was
this huge catastrophe

1282
00:53:45,745 --> 00:53:47,745
that brought them to an end.

1283
00:53:47,248 --> 00:53:49,312
The dinosaurs are already dinosaurs

1284
00:53:49,337 --> 00:53:51,337
when they first,
when they first appeared.

1285
00:53:51,197 --> 00:53:52,266
They looked just like...

1286
00:53:52,313 --> 00:53:55,180
anyone would sit,
think of a dinosaur looked.

1287
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:56,844
And this is a conundrum

1288
00:53:56,869 --> 00:53:59,869
for, for those who believe in
the evolution of the dinosaurs.

1289
00:53:59,580 --> 00:54:02,931
But we hear a lot
about transitional forms.

1290
00:54:02,973 --> 00:54:05,462
What's, what's the real story there?

1291
00:54:05,584 --> 00:54:07,937
Scientists have been able to...

1292
00:54:07,969 --> 00:54:11,249
lay out some forms
they think are transitional,

1293
00:54:11,335 --> 00:54:15,759
and some of them are very interesting,
some even challenging.

1294
00:54:15,876 --> 00:54:18,290
But, there are
the exceptions to the rule.

1295
00:54:18,329 --> 00:54:20,784
The rule is there are
no transitional fossils.

1296
00:54:20,809 --> 00:54:23,581
And what we find
in the fossil record...

1297
00:54:23,644 --> 00:54:27,538
and contrary to Darwin's hopes,
this is the rule,...

1298
00:54:27,598 --> 00:54:30,691
is that a form exists
in the fossil record,...

1299
00:54:30,716 --> 00:54:32,748
it basically stays unchanged,

1300
00:54:32,773 --> 00:54:34,773
and it disappears
from the fossil record

1301
00:54:34,701 --> 00:54:36,384
without him had been changed.

1302
00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:39,234
That has gotten to mean
somethng besides evolution

1303
00:54:39,259 --> 00:54:41,259
because we don't never see

1304
00:54:40,669 --> 00:54:42,752
changes from this form into this form

1305
00:54:42,777 --> 00:54:45,040
in the, in the rocks themselves.

1306
00:54:45,228 --> 00:54:47,714
So it's coming from somewhere else.

1307
00:54:47,753 --> 00:54:51,908
It's a, it's a paradigm that is
being imposed on the data...

1308
00:54:51,943 --> 00:54:53,394
rather than the data is...

1309
00:54:53,465 --> 00:54:55,472
- providing the paradigm.
- Uh-huh.

1310
00:54:55,576 --> 00:54:59,576
So I think it's very easy
for me to be a creationist

1311
00:54:58,950 --> 00:55:01,105
just based on my understanding of...

1312
00:55:01,136 --> 00:55:02,964
the complexity of life forms.

1313
00:55:03,021 --> 00:55:05,021
And when we look at
the fossil record,

1314
00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:07,740
we can see the complexity
is all there from the beginning

1315
00:55:07,371 --> 00:55:10,371
- and this, this begs a question of:
- Uh-huh.

1316
00:55:09,714 --> 00:55:12,154
Where did all this complexity come from?

1317
00:55:12,216 --> 00:55:14,216
It's one thing to have faith.

1318
00:55:13,727 --> 00:55:15,383
I have faith that God...

1319
00:55:15,469 --> 00:55:16,618
was a creator,

1320
00:55:16,673 --> 00:55:19,673
but that's substantiated
by what I see around me.

1321
00:55:19,406 --> 00:55:20,179
Uh-huh.

1322
00:55:20,210 --> 00:55:23,334
To say I have faith that,
that evolution produced this...

1323
00:55:23,381 --> 00:55:26,381
when I can't even see
how it could've happened,

1324
00:55:26,257 --> 00:55:27,475
that's blind faith.

1325
00:55:27,514 --> 00:55:31,514
- That's a leap in the dark.
- That's a leap in the dark.

1326
00:55:31,789 --> 00:55:33,789
It seemed that everywhere I looked,

1327
00:55:33,649 --> 00:55:35,649
there was a growing body of evidence

1328
00:55:35,564 --> 00:55:38,422
that fits the historical record of Genesis.

1329
00:55:38,539 --> 00:55:40,539
It wasn't just one thing.

1330
00:55:40,329 --> 00:55:43,568
It was many things pointing
in the same direction.

1331
00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:44,722
When I was with Art,

1332
00:55:44,753 --> 00:55:49,548
he told me about some recent discoveries
of material inside dinosaur bones.

1333
00:55:49,591 --> 00:55:53,591
So I traveled to a lab in Arizona
to talk to a scientist...

1334
00:55:52,913 --> 00:55:55,747
who is doing some
of that research himself.

1335
00:55:59,650 --> 00:56:02,540
- This is a fragment of Triceratops horn.
- Hhh.

1336
00:56:02,579 --> 00:56:04,579
Uh, when we pulled it out the ground,

1337
00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:05,329
it fragmented.

1338
00:56:05,361 --> 00:56:08,361
And then, of course, we had
to continue to fragment it,

1339
00:56:07,729 --> 00:56:09,729
in order to do analysis of it.

1340
00:56:09,728 --> 00:56:11,281
Uh, in 2012,

1341
00:56:11,321 --> 00:56:14,820
the Creationist Research Society
sponsored Mark Armitage and I

1342
00:56:14,836 --> 00:56:17,875
to go to the Hell Creek
Formation in Montana,

1343
00:56:17,906 --> 00:56:21,336
which is very popular place
for finding dinosaur bones,

1344
00:56:21,397 --> 00:56:23,265
and we instead dug out

1345
00:56:23,290 --> 00:56:27,394
a, almost, four foot long
Triceratops brown horn.

1346
00:56:27,511 --> 00:56:30,534
Now, it's just in crumble pieces now.

1347
00:56:30,565 --> 00:56:33,565
So we can't really,
you know, put it together

1348
00:56:32,495 --> 00:56:34,495
- and show you a horn.
- Uh-huh.

1349
00:56:34,106 --> 00:56:36,325
But yet, you have
to recognize that...

1350
00:56:36,388 --> 00:56:38,575
pieces susch as this,...

1351
00:56:38,685 --> 00:56:41,606
we have found tissue...

1352
00:56:41,778 --> 00:56:43,318
with cells,...

1353
00:56:43,372 --> 00:56:45,606
- Oh, that's amazing.
- And potentially...

1354
00:56:45,692 --> 00:56:47,442
proteins such as collagen.

1355
00:56:47,497 --> 00:56:50,257
It's so difficult to understand

1356
00:56:50,288 --> 00:56:54,683
how you could have this material
still in a dinosaur fossil...

1357
00:56:54,734 --> 00:56:58,041
that is supposed to be 65, 75,

1358
00:56:58,066 --> 00:57:00,066
- 80 million years of age,
- Uh-huh.

1359
00:56:59,456 --> 00:57:04,361
because tissue, cells,
proteins break down.

1360
00:57:04,416 --> 00:57:06,416
They don't just,
they're not concrete.

1361
00:57:06,263 --> 00:57:09,263
They don't just exist
for eons of time.

1362
00:57:08,856 --> 00:57:10,856
They break down.
And, in fact,...

1363
00:57:10,474 --> 00:57:12,474
they tend to break down
fairly quickly,

1364
00:57:12,208 --> 00:57:13,617
depending upon the conditions.

1365
00:57:13,656 --> 00:57:15,624
And certainly in Hell Creek,...

1366
00:57:15,694 --> 00:57:16,788
the conditions would be

1367
00:57:16,820 --> 00:57:19,359
warmed up, cooled down,
warmed up, cooled down.

1368
00:57:19,397 --> 00:57:21,397
And any biochemist can tell you

1369
00:57:20,874 --> 00:57:23,781
that is the fastest way
to destroy material.

1370
00:57:23,843 --> 00:57:26,836
It's difficult enough
to envision it surviving

1371
00:57:26,861 --> 00:57:28,836
for 4 or 5000 years.

1372
00:57:28,861 --> 00:57:30,494
- But, 60 million years?
- Hhh.

1373
00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:31,519
70 million years?

1374
00:57:31,511 --> 00:57:34,332
See, that really becomes
very difficult to make

1375
00:57:34,341 --> 00:57:37,621
any kind of biochemical

1376
00:57:37,683 --> 00:57:40,683
- basis for how it could have survived.
- Uh-huh.

1377
00:57:40,276 --> 00:57:43,849
Okay, so,
once you find a, a,...

1378
00:57:43,897 --> 00:57:45,897
- a sample like this,
- Uh-huh.

1379
00:57:44,959 --> 00:57:46,342
what do you do next?

1380
00:57:46,428 --> 00:57:50,608
So, what we do is
we soak the fossil material

1381
00:57:50,633 --> 00:57:53,766
in a solution called E.D.T.A.

1382
00:57:53,805 --> 00:57:56,805
And what you'll have
after dissolving the fossil,

1383
00:57:56,617 --> 00:57:57,768
the tissuewill be remaining

1384
00:57:57,795 --> 00:57:59,921
because the EDTA won't
dissolve the tissue.

1385
00:57:59,961 --> 00:58:02,002
- Hhh.
- So then I bring this over to...

1386
00:58:02,096 --> 00:58:04,299
uh, what we call a dissection...

1387
00:58:04,339 --> 00:58:06,049
- microscope.
- Uh-huh.

1388
00:58:06,136 --> 00:58:08,654
This is, in essence, dissolved...

1389
00:58:08,709 --> 00:58:10,834
Triceratops horn.

1390
00:58:10,912 --> 00:58:12,084
Magnified...

1391
00:58:12,123 --> 00:58:15,123
And so, you can see
what it looks like.

1392
00:58:13,734 --> 00:58:16,813
Just like of little,
little pieces of rock.

1393
00:58:17,322 --> 00:58:19,608
Well, Kevin,
what did you find then...

1394
00:58:19,647 --> 00:58:22,733
uh, when you, when you were
looking at the sample

1395
00:58:22,772 --> 00:58:25,319
and you actually found
some, some tissue?

1396
00:58:25,467 --> 00:58:27,467
Okay, here is what we found.

1397
00:58:27,381 --> 00:58:29,787
This is actually Triceratops tissue.

1398
00:58:29,842 --> 00:58:31,233
It's stretchable.

1399
00:58:31,303 --> 00:58:32,616
It's pliable.

1400
00:58:32,670 --> 00:58:34,670
- It's not an impression
- Hhh.

1401
00:58:34,444 --> 00:58:36,999
of the soft part of the dinosaur.

1402
00:58:37,053 --> 00:58:38,743
This is truely soft.

1403
00:58:38,768 --> 00:58:39,803
It is squishy.

1404
00:58:39,828 --> 00:58:41,969
It is stretchable.
It is tissue.

1405
00:58:41,994 --> 00:58:43,225
That blows your mind, huh?

1406
00:58:43,250 --> 00:58:44,314
Absolutely.

1407
00:58:44,349 --> 00:58:48,570
And if you look at them
in the closer magnification,...

1408
00:58:49,148 --> 00:58:53,067
what we see then, this is using
scanning electron microscopy,

1409
00:58:53,102 --> 00:58:57,088
you can see the extreme
detail of the cells.

1410
00:58:57,213 --> 00:58:59,274
And that picture and this picture,

1411
00:58:59,299 --> 00:59:01,417
and particularly like,
look at this picture...

1412
00:59:01,479 --> 00:59:03,262
we would not expect,

1413
00:59:03,309 --> 00:59:08,051
we didn't expect to see such
enormous and elaborate detail.

1414
00:59:08,129 --> 00:59:10,808
I mean, these structures
are incredibly small.

1415
00:59:10,833 --> 00:59:13,833
You know, this is
our 20 micron bar here.

1416
00:59:13,161 --> 00:59:15,161
You see how small
these structures are...

1417
00:59:15,075 --> 00:59:16,497
- still intact.
- Yeah.

1418
00:59:16,522 --> 00:59:18,974
It would take very little
to break those.

1419
00:59:19,009 --> 00:59:23,009
So at best, you would expect
that all that would have broken off

1420
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:24,230
- and been long gone.
- Uh-huh.

1421
00:59:23,659 --> 00:59:26,700
So, that has, has to have...

1422
00:59:26,763 --> 00:59:29,191
shaken up the scientific community.

1423
00:59:29,230 --> 00:59:32,230
What has been
the response to all of this?

1424
00:59:31,691 --> 00:59:33,427
The initial response,

1425
00:59:33,458 --> 00:59:36,700
when Dr. Schweitzer
first published her work,...

1426
00:59:36,747 --> 00:59:40,593
which is what became
very popularized in 2005,

1427
00:59:40,624 --> 00:59:42,772
it generated a lot of response.

1428
00:59:42,866 --> 00:59:46,412
And so initially, some of
the reaction was rejection.

1429
00:59:46,447 --> 00:59:48,055
Oh, it's contamination.

1430
00:59:48,087 --> 00:59:49,087
You know, those,

1431
00:59:48,901 --> 00:59:50,901
- Oh.
- that's not really dinosaur.

1432
00:59:50,524 --> 00:59:52,578
It's bacteria.

1433
00:59:52,626 --> 00:59:55,344
Because bacteria can look
kind of strange sometimes.

1434
00:59:55,376 --> 00:59:59,376
So, you have a lot of
proposals of what it could be.

1435
00:59:59,299 --> 01:00:04,199
And to her credit,
Dr. Schweitzer did more work.

1436
01:00:04,246 --> 01:00:06,028
They began to find protein.

1437
01:00:06,059 --> 01:00:08,059
You break open some of these cells,

1438
01:00:07,933 --> 01:00:09,099
you look in them

1439
01:00:09,124 --> 01:00:12,833
at the matrix these cells are
attached to and their protein.

1440
01:00:12,904 --> 01:00:15,371
Okay, so once that is uh,

1441
01:00:15,396 --> 01:00:16,951
- understood,
- Yes.

1442
01:00:16,988 --> 01:00:18,417
then, what happens?

1443
01:00:18,464 --> 01:00:20,464
No, this is shaking it up, I guess.

1444
01:00:20,402 --> 01:00:22,714
That becomes part of the controversy.

1445
01:00:22,739 --> 01:00:25,525
Because, clearly,
you now face with

1446
01:00:25,550 --> 01:00:28,556
How could you explain
the survival of this?

1447
01:00:28,581 --> 01:00:30,527
- The pristine survival...
- Hhh.

1448
01:00:30,552 --> 01:00:31,620
of this.

1449
01:00:31,667 --> 01:00:33,769
Not only for so long,

1450
01:00:33,831 --> 01:00:36,323
- but in very unpristine condition.
- Uh-huh.

1451
01:00:36,355 --> 01:00:38,355
And so then,
the controversy has been,

1452
01:00:38,294 --> 01:00:39,454
How do you explain it?

1453
01:00:39,486 --> 01:00:40,486
- Uh-huh.
- And...

1454
01:00:40,298 --> 01:00:42,843
if you read some of the literature,

1455
01:00:42,882 --> 01:00:44,913
there is almost like desperation of,

1456
01:00:44,938 --> 01:00:46,437
because they recognize...

1457
01:00:46,484 --> 01:00:48,484
what the implications of this could be.

1458
01:00:48,460 --> 01:00:51,460
Now, some people would claim:
Well, it means nothing,

1459
01:00:50,728 --> 01:00:52,728
because we know how old they are,

1460
01:00:52,135 --> 01:00:54,189
and therefore, it just means
it survived somehow.

1461
01:00:54,220 --> 01:00:55,296
Big deal.

1462
01:00:55,321 --> 01:00:58,321
But, how do you know
how old they are?

1463
01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:58,399
Would you use methods?

1464
01:00:58,424 --> 01:00:59,541
Suppose methods of dating.

1465
01:00:59,567 --> 01:01:01,567
Well, this is a method of dating.

1466
01:01:01,532 --> 01:01:03,978
The tissue itself can't be discounted

1467
01:01:04,009 --> 01:01:06,009
- as part of a method of dating.
- Hhh.

1468
01:01:05,574 --> 01:01:09,574
So, why do you say that doesn't count,
but this does count?

1469
01:01:08,421 --> 01:01:12,240
Well, it's all about the paradigm
drives your conclusions.

1470
01:01:12,265 --> 01:01:14,265
The paradigm is,
it has to be old,

1471
01:01:14,029 --> 01:01:18,029
therefore, methods that give us
an old fossil are what we choose.

1472
01:01:17,931 --> 01:01:20,931
Something that doesn't give us
an old fossil, like tissue,

1473
01:01:20,601 --> 01:01:23,601
- we have to reject or explain away.
- Uh-huh.

1474
01:01:23,453 --> 01:01:27,453
At least to me, and I, of course,
I'm not a microbiologist, but...

1475
01:01:27,140 --> 01:01:29,431
I think most people uh, would say:

1476
01:01:29,456 --> 01:01:32,470
Well, that, that just seems
reasonable to think that,

1477
01:01:32,495 --> 01:01:34,878
maybe, these are not that old.

1478
01:01:34,931 --> 01:01:39,167
Clearly, this is in violation of
the dating process.

1479
01:01:39,192 --> 01:01:40,245
It challenges...

1480
01:01:40,285 --> 01:01:42,285
- the entire dating process.
- Uh-huh.

1481
01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:45,636
If the fossils of dinosaurs
have been dated incorrectly,

1482
01:01:45,661 --> 01:01:48,661
which I would say, this is
a clear evidence they have,

1483
01:01:48,410 --> 01:01:50,632
then it's very likely

1484
01:01:50,663 --> 01:01:53,835
the fossils of any organism
had been dated incorrectly.

1485
01:01:53,860 --> 01:01:54,889
And therefore then,

1486
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,358
the geological ages
themselves are incorrect.

1487
01:01:57,389 --> 01:02:01,389
What you're saying is that
if you pull out the notion of

1488
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,711
a long period of time,...

1489
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:06,422
uh, you're pulling out a major...

1490
01:02:06,462 --> 01:02:07,837
- foundation...
- Hhh.

1491
01:02:07,868 --> 01:02:09,472
uh, for the conventional paradigm.

1492
01:02:09,519 --> 01:02:10,440
Absolutely.

1493
01:02:10,472 --> 01:02:15,815
In fact, time is the critical
component for evolution.

1494
01:02:15,970 --> 01:02:18,349
If you're going to say that...

1495
01:02:18,427 --> 01:02:22,896
a simple cellular system became
a multicellular system,

1496
01:02:22,927 --> 01:02:25,190
and then became fish,...

1497
01:02:25,299 --> 01:02:26,809
and the fish then...

1498
01:02:26,856 --> 01:02:28,924
jumped up on land and grew legs

1499
01:02:28,949 --> 01:02:30,504
- and started breathing air,
- Hhh.

1500
01:02:30,543 --> 01:02:32,801
and then that creature

1501
01:02:32,848 --> 01:02:35,551
grew feathers and wings
and started flying...

1502
01:02:35,635 --> 01:02:37,848
So if you give us time,

1503
01:02:37,888 --> 01:02:41,317
we'll claim to account
for all of this...

1504
01:02:41,371 --> 01:02:43,940
massive change of organisms.

1505
01:02:43,965 --> 01:02:46,160
But, we got to have the time.

1506
01:02:46,723 --> 01:02:50,168
Everything seemed to come back
to the question of time.

1507
01:02:50,285 --> 01:02:51,795
I remembered Andrew saying that

1508
01:02:51,820 --> 01:02:54,940
Charles Darwin accepted
the millions of years first,

1509
01:02:54,996 --> 01:02:58,193
then fit his theory of evolution
to that assumption.

1510
01:02:58,271 --> 01:03:02,578
But why is time such
an important element to evolution?

1511
01:03:10,782 --> 01:03:12,782
Rob Carter is a marine biologist.

1512
01:03:12,696 --> 01:03:14,696
So we took this scuba diving...

1513
01:03:14,478 --> 01:03:18,478
to get a glimpse of a world
most people don't see.

1514
01:03:17,548 --> 01:03:19,689
His specialty was coral.

1515
01:03:19,814 --> 01:03:22,814
And he knew a lot about
the incredible creatures

1516
01:03:22,205 --> 01:03:25,673
that inhabit the reefs
around St. Thomas.

1517
01:03:25,988 --> 01:03:28,214
Oh man, we got the sharks here?

1518
01:03:28,261 --> 01:03:30,261
The mean in which how they move,

1519
01:03:29,630 --> 01:03:31,800
and it's almost like effortlessly

1520
01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:33,465
glide along.

1521
01:03:33,472 --> 01:03:35,472
I wish I could swim like that.

1522
01:03:35,005 --> 01:03:37,128
Engineers wish we could
make boats like that.

1523
01:03:37,153 --> 01:03:37,613
Yeah.

1524
01:03:37,622 --> 01:03:40,622
Submarines that could move
as efficiently as a shark,

1525
01:03:40,066 --> 01:03:42,066
we can't quite do it.

1526
01:03:42,154 --> 01:03:44,731
So from your perspective
as a marine biologist,

1527
01:03:44,756 --> 01:03:48,756
and I know that you've studied
the whole area of ​​genetics alot,...

1528
01:03:48,498 --> 01:03:49,256
Yes.

1529
01:03:49,295 --> 01:03:51,649
when people talk about
evolution, what is it?

1530
01:03:51,674 --> 01:03:53,445
How do you define evolution?

1531
01:03:53,496 --> 01:03:55,702
The word means "change over time".

1532
01:03:55,813 --> 01:03:58,508
But, I believe in change over time.

1533
01:03:58,625 --> 01:04:00,625
But I'm not an evolutionist.

1534
01:03:59,916 --> 01:04:01,916
So how does one figure this out?

1535
01:04:01,650 --> 01:04:04,438
Really, evolution is a belief...

1536
01:04:04,552 --> 01:04:06,797
that enough change over time,...

1537
01:04:06,872 --> 01:04:08,477
over enough time,...

1538
01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:11,549
can lead to the common ancestry
of all species on Earth.

1539
01:04:11,322 --> 01:04:11,881
Alright.

1540
01:04:11,906 --> 01:04:13,906
So that's the part I reject.

1541
01:04:13,625 --> 01:04:14,695
Of course, species change.

1542
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:16,720
I mean, look at these sharks here.

1543
01:04:16,002 --> 01:04:18,203
We have several different
species of sharks.

1544
01:04:18,253 --> 01:04:19,566
When God created,

1545
01:04:19,605 --> 01:04:22,355
He put in to those organisms the ability

1546
01:04:22,386 --> 01:04:23,925
to change,
to adapt,

1547
01:04:23,956 --> 01:04:26,339
- to respond dynamically...
- Uh-huh.

1548
01:04:26,363 --> 01:04:27,660
to the environment.

1549
01:04:27,730 --> 01:04:29,496
But, they're still sharks.

1550
01:04:29,566 --> 01:04:31,566
And when we look at
the fossil record,...

1551
01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:33,300
- they're still sharks.
- Uh-huh.

1552
01:04:33,332 --> 01:04:36,332
Yeah, people have heard
the phrase the "missing link",...

1553
01:04:35,691 --> 01:04:38,691
and they usually think of
between man and monkeys.

1554
01:04:37,808 --> 01:04:39,808
No, this missing link is between

1555
01:04:39,136 --> 01:04:41,136
almost every major group of animal,

1556
01:04:40,972 --> 01:04:44,044
and almost every other major
group of animal and plant,

1557
01:04:44,069 --> 01:04:47,185
and bacteria throughout
the entire fossil record.

1558
01:04:47,226 --> 01:04:49,021
Which indicates very strongly...

1559
01:04:49,052 --> 01:04:52,255
that these are actually
different creations.

1560
01:04:52,368 --> 01:04:55,368
So we don't get one kind
becoming another kind?

1561
01:04:54,577 --> 01:04:55,372
No.

1562
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:57,788
Evolution theory requires that...

1563
01:04:57,827 --> 01:05:01,757
small, random changes
can explain everything we see.

1564
01:05:01,805 --> 01:05:03,805
- Uh-huh.
- But, it can't.

1565
01:05:03,754 --> 01:05:04,796
And why can't it?

1566
01:05:04,821 --> 01:05:07,663
Because life is so complex...

1567
01:05:07,683 --> 01:05:09,692
that small changes can't explain it.

1568
01:05:09,734 --> 01:05:12,734
Just like you can't take
a computer operating system,...

1569
01:05:12,543 --> 01:05:13,011
Uh-huh.

1570
01:05:13,036 --> 01:05:17,036
and look at it and say,
oh yeah, this is built up

1571
01:05:14,706 --> 01:05:16,706
- one digit at a time...
- Right.

1572
01:05:16,471 --> 01:05:18,190
over any length of time.

1573
01:05:18,221 --> 01:05:21,221
No, it took an intelligent
person to sit down...

1574
01:05:20,667 --> 01:05:22,003
and put it together.

1575
01:05:22,049 --> 01:05:26,049
Well, I can guarantee you
as one who is in that world...

1576
01:05:25,067 --> 01:05:29,067
that if anyone in the area of
​​computer science would have said,

1577
01:05:28,788 --> 01:05:32,030
we just randomly change some things
in this operating system,

1578
01:05:32,055 --> 01:05:33,069
it'll get better.

1579
01:05:33,100 --> 01:05:35,100
I mean, no one would
agree with that.

1580
01:05:34,569 --> 01:05:36,694
No, we're not gonna get the shark...

1581
01:05:36,749 --> 01:05:39,030
to evolve into a bird.

1582
01:05:39,139 --> 01:05:41,389
The, the, the number of changes

1583
01:05:41,421 --> 01:05:43,140
and the type of changes...

1584
01:05:43,202 --> 01:05:45,506
- are not something you could do...
- Uh-huh.

1585
01:05:45,577 --> 01:05:47,756
one change at a time.

1586
01:05:50,619 --> 01:05:53,005
This is a sea urchin.

1587
01:05:53,173 --> 01:05:54,200
Looks spiny.

1588
01:05:54,227 --> 01:05:56,227
It's pointy.
You have to be careful.

1589
01:05:55,758 --> 01:05:59,758
- Am I gonna get stuck if I touch it?
- No, no, no.

1590
01:05:57,805 --> 01:05:58,807
It's pointy, but...

1591
01:05:58,846 --> 01:06:00,846
Oh my goodness,
they, they're moving.

1592
01:06:00,178 --> 01:06:01,495
Yes, they're moving.

1593
01:06:01,719 --> 01:06:04,719
And then between the spines,
there are little tube feet.

1594
01:06:04,638 --> 01:06:06,807
Especially, in the bottom.

1595
01:06:08,314 --> 01:06:09,838
Oh, look at that movement.

1596
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:12,152
- So he walks with his spines...
- Huh.

1597
01:06:12,192 --> 01:06:14,192
but his little tube feet in here,

1598
01:06:13,900 --> 01:06:16,900
and that's what he uses
to grab on to things...

1599
01:06:15,894 --> 01:06:17,582
But look, looking carefully...

1600
01:06:17,605 --> 01:06:20,605
there is one, two, three,
four, five, six, seven...

1601
01:06:19,754 --> 01:06:23,324
there are actually ten
radial parts to this animal.

1602
01:06:23,449 --> 01:06:24,285
Huh!

1603
01:06:24,324 --> 01:06:26,324
Actually, the starfish is his cousin.

1604
01:06:26,339 --> 01:06:28,339
Are you seriously?
You can't be serious.

1605
01:06:27,927 --> 01:06:28,933
Absolutely.

1606
01:06:28,958 --> 01:06:32,300
A starfish here is
also an echinoderm.

1607
01:06:32,363 --> 01:06:34,363
But note, it has five full symmetry...

1608
01:06:34,317 --> 01:06:36,317
-  instead of 10.
- Uh-huh. Yeah.

1609
01:06:35,912 --> 01:06:37,292
This starfish does.

1610
01:06:37,390 --> 01:06:39,201
At the bottom, look...

1611
01:06:39,530 --> 01:06:42,530
we see the spines,
we see the tube feet.

1612
01:06:42,498 --> 01:06:45,047
- His mouth is in the center there.
- Huh.

1613
01:06:45,336 --> 01:06:47,336
So there are some similarities here?

1614
01:06:47,234 --> 01:06:48,109
- Similarities...
- Eventhough,

1615
01:06:48,133 --> 01:06:49,561
externally, looks a lot different.

1616
01:06:49,586 --> 01:06:50,586
A lot different...

1617
01:06:50,297 --> 01:06:53,297
You want to see something
that looks a lot different?

1618
01:06:52,047 --> 01:06:54,211
- Sure.
- Which is cousin to the starfish

1619
01:06:54,242 --> 01:06:55,459
- and sea urchins.
- Okay.

1620
01:06:55,484 --> 01:06:56,656
Alright.

1621
01:06:56,686 --> 01:06:58,686
It almost looks like a rock.

1622
01:06:57,986 --> 01:06:59,986
Yes, yes, I got to be careful.

1623
01:06:59,990 --> 01:07:01,303
He's squirting on me.

1624
01:07:01,443 --> 01:07:04,544
- This is a sea cucumber.
- No.

1625
01:07:04,583 --> 01:07:06,583
- I'll be...
- He has spines.

1626
01:07:06,863 --> 01:07:08,458
He has...

1627
01:07:08,513 --> 01:07:09,631
Huh.

1628
01:07:09,693 --> 01:07:11,324
- tube feet.
- Oh my goodness.

1629
01:07:11,349 --> 01:07:14,679
You'd never know until
you study really hard...

1630
01:07:14,742 --> 01:07:17,210
that this is also an echinoderm.

1631
01:07:17,304 --> 01:07:20,304
He's not very happy
to be out of water

1632
01:07:19,156 --> 01:07:21,156
- so let me put him back in.
- Yeah.

1633
01:07:20,249 --> 01:07:21,453
So these are all related

1634
01:07:21,488 --> 01:07:23,554
eventhough, they look
very, very different.

1635
01:07:23,593 --> 01:07:25,406
Related in their creation.

1636
01:07:25,431 --> 01:07:27,431
- Uh-huh.
- Not in an evolutionary sense,

1637
01:07:27,460 --> 01:07:29,288
but, our Creator...

1638
01:07:29,367 --> 01:07:31,398
took this phylum of life,...

1639
01:07:31,507 --> 01:07:32,898
the echinoderms,

1640
01:07:33,023 --> 01:07:35,695
and created this and this and this

1641
01:07:35,734 --> 01:07:36,928
on a similar pattern.

1642
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:40,960
And that's what we see
across the entire realm of life,

1643
01:07:39,740 --> 01:07:41,701
- Uh-huh.
- similarities and differences.

1644
01:07:41,828 --> 01:07:44,275
So, what makes them different?

1645
01:07:44,314 --> 01:07:46,902
Well, genetically, they share...

1646
01:07:46,948 --> 01:07:49,143
most of their genes in common.

1647
01:07:49,346 --> 01:07:51,603
But, they develop mental genes,

1648
01:07:51,635 --> 01:07:53,119
they're called Hox genes,

1649
01:07:53,150 --> 01:07:54,996
that set up these patterns

1650
01:07:55,021 --> 01:07:57,021
in the animals as they develop.

1651
01:07:56,355 --> 01:07:58,355
They develop from a single cell.

1652
01:07:58,248 --> 01:08:02,248
Then in one of them,
they set up a five-fold symmetry.

1653
01:08:00,885 --> 01:08:03,885
in another, they set up
a ten-fold symmetry.

1654
01:08:02,746 --> 01:08:05,717
Another one, they make
this long skinny animal.

1655
01:08:05,779 --> 01:08:07,873
They control the development...

1656
01:08:07,912 --> 01:08:10,589
of the embryo in these amazing ways.

1657
01:08:10,678 --> 01:08:14,678
So what you're saying,
when we look at this from uh, um,...

1658
01:08:14,139 --> 01:08:17,201
a molecular or genetic perspective,...

1659
01:08:17,303 --> 01:08:22,238
uh, what we're finding is
really a fascinating design...

1660
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:24,076
- in all of this.
- Absolutely.

1661
01:08:24,201 --> 01:08:27,836
But, what we heard in
the conventional paradigm,

1662
01:08:27,867 --> 01:08:30,086
the conventional story tells us...

1663
01:08:30,133 --> 01:08:32,772
that is those random changes

1664
01:08:32,797 --> 01:08:34,797
that has brought about all of this.

1665
01:08:34,789 --> 01:08:35,447
Sure.

1666
01:08:35,482 --> 01:08:36,867
Back in the eighteen hundreds,

1667
01:08:36,898 --> 01:08:38,898
- when life was simple,
- Uh-huh.

1668
01:08:38,449 --> 01:08:41,449
when they didn't know what
was happening inside the cell,

1669
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,383
they didn't know
how complex genetics was,

1670
01:08:42,430 --> 01:08:44,430
you could imagine
all sorts of things.

1671
01:08:44,336 --> 01:08:46,336
But now that we know
what actually happens

1672
01:08:46,174 --> 01:08:47,283
- behind the scence,
- Hhh.

1673
01:08:47,315 --> 01:08:49,315
the story gets a lot more complicated.

1674
01:08:49,033 --> 01:08:52,033
You see, I like to say
that the genome...

1675
01:08:51,379 --> 01:08:53,160
- is four-dimensional.
- Hhh.

1676
01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:56,199
We, we have a one
dimensional string called DNA.

1677
01:08:55,855 --> 01:08:58,121
And if you want to draw that out,

1678
01:08:58,176 --> 01:09:01,176
you have to write all the letters of DNA,

1679
01:08:59,910 --> 01:09:01,910
I don't, all three billion of them,

1680
01:09:01,691 --> 01:09:04,691
and then you have
to draw lines or arrows...

1681
01:09:03,988 --> 01:09:07,988
from one part to anotherpart
because this part turns this part off,

1682
01:09:06,613 --> 01:09:09,613
this part interferes with this,
this part enhances this.

1683
01:09:09,254 --> 01:09:11,358
It is a huge two dimensional
interaction network.

1684
01:09:11,404 --> 01:09:14,404
that's a way you have
a two-dimensional genome.

1685
01:09:13,615 --> 01:09:14,615
Hey, let me, let me

1686
01:09:14,326 --> 01:09:16,326
- stop you for a second,
- Alright.

1687
01:09:15,092 --> 01:09:16,787
because this is really amazing...

1688
01:09:16,834 --> 01:09:18,365
to think about this because...

1689
01:09:18,412 --> 01:09:21,412
um, I think, in terms of
a computer program

1690
01:09:21,414 --> 01:09:22,676
that is fairly static.

1691
01:09:22,701 --> 01:09:24,701
- I mean, the instructions are there.
- Yeah.

1692
01:09:24,545 --> 01:09:26,555
But, you're talking about a program

1693
01:09:26,586 --> 01:09:28,569
- that is reprogramming itself.
- Oh.

1694
01:09:28,594 --> 01:09:30,594
That's modifying its own instructions.

1695
01:09:30,344 --> 01:09:32,344
Wait until you get to fourth dimension.

1696
01:09:31,712 --> 01:09:32,766
Oh, okay.

1697
01:09:32,816 --> 01:09:34,816
Because there is a third dimension first.

1698
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,573
The information in that first dimension,
that linear string,...

1699
01:09:37,602 --> 01:09:39,727
has to be organized in such a way...

1700
01:09:39,756 --> 01:09:42,482
that when it folds
into the third dimension,

1701
01:09:42,529 --> 01:09:43,537
it still works.

1702
01:09:43,572 --> 01:09:44,669
Oh, that's amazing.

1703
01:09:44,707 --> 01:09:47,707
Genes that are used together
are next to each other.

1704
01:09:47,045 --> 01:09:49,045
- In 3D space.
- I'll be...

1705
01:09:48,857 --> 01:09:52,137
Are you saying that once
this thing gets folded up,

1706
01:09:52,162 --> 01:09:54,162
It's almost like we have...

1707
01:09:53,615 --> 01:09:55,615
- a new set of instructions?
- Yes.

1708
01:09:55,427 --> 01:09:56,896
And new level of information.

1709
01:09:56,943 --> 01:09:58,246
- Unbelievable.
- That...

1710
01:09:58,271 --> 01:10:00,373
whoever programmed that first level...

1711
01:10:00,404 --> 01:10:02,404
needed to understand
what was gonna happen...

1712
01:10:02,209 --> 01:10:04,209
have it work in the third level.

1713
01:10:03,705 --> 01:10:05,705
But, you said there is
another dimension even.

1714
01:10:05,625 --> 01:10:07,977
Oh yeah.
The fourth dimension is time.

1715
01:10:08,133 --> 01:10:09,352
And how does that work?

1716
01:10:09,383 --> 01:10:11,219
The genome changes shape...

1717
01:10:11,313 --> 01:10:12,594
over time.

1718
01:10:12,633 --> 01:10:15,633
Maybe, you eat something
that's bad for you...

1719
01:10:15,148 --> 01:10:18,322
and your liver says,
I can get rid of that toxin.

1720
01:10:18,347 --> 01:10:22,244
Now, the chromosomes in
the liver will change shape,

1721
01:10:22,547 --> 01:10:25,232
expose that new protein gene,

1722
01:10:25,295 --> 01:10:27,318
make copies of it,...

1723
01:10:27,529 --> 01:10:30,997
build the brand new protein
that can kill off that toxin,...

1724
01:10:31,068 --> 01:10:33,068
and when it's not needed anymore,

1725
01:10:32,451 --> 01:10:35,451
- they change shape again and fold back.
- Oh my goodness.

1726
01:10:34,646 --> 01:10:36,349
Dynamic programming.

1727
01:10:36,428 --> 01:10:38,537
All three levels...

1728
01:10:38,591 --> 01:10:41,591
change in the fourth level time.

1729
01:10:41,796 --> 01:10:45,237
Rob, that's so far beyond
anything that we know.

1730
01:10:45,262 --> 01:10:47,827
Even in our most complex
software systems

1731
01:10:47,842 --> 01:10:51,280
that it, it's almost beyond
imagination to think...

1732
01:10:51,348 --> 01:10:53,600
that someone would look at that

1733
01:10:53,625 --> 01:10:55,625
and say,
it all happened by chance.

1734
01:10:55,344 --> 01:10:57,344
Yes, and only brings glory to God.

1735
01:10:57,274 --> 01:10:58,047
It does.

1736
01:10:58,078 --> 01:11:00,078
You can't build something like that up

1737
01:10:59,745 --> 01:11:01,745
- one thing at a time.
- Yeah.

1738
01:11:00,938 --> 01:11:02,909
You need it function.

1739
01:11:03,018 --> 01:11:06,010
In, in all its interlocking
four dimensional complexity,

1740
01:11:06,049 --> 01:11:08,049
it's not something you can do...

1741
01:11:07,588 --> 01:11:08,948
one letter at a time...

1742
01:11:08,987 --> 01:11:10,360
- with natural selection.
- Uh-huh.

1743
01:11:10,385 --> 01:11:12,385
It all has to be there.

1744
01:11:11,645 --> 01:11:14,645
Yeah, in the same way
when we talk about

1745
01:11:13,317 --> 01:11:15,379
the environment down here
at the coral reef.

1746
01:11:15,442 --> 01:11:19,442
If you don't have all these
interlocking pieces in that puzzle,

1747
01:11:18,653 --> 01:11:20,653
you don't have that ecology.

1748
01:11:20,538 --> 01:11:22,538
The system would come crashing down

1749
01:11:22,107 --> 01:11:25,107
if you just remove
a couple of very important

1750
01:11:24,575 --> 01:11:26,575
- factors that are there.
- Uh-huh.

1751
01:11:25,638 --> 01:11:28,638
They have to be together
or it doesn't happen.

1752
01:11:28,363 --> 01:11:31,638
So not only do we have
this uh, interdependency,

1753
01:11:31,678 --> 01:11:34,974
this mutualism, so to speak,
down at the genetic level,

1754
01:11:35,060 --> 01:11:38,060
now we even make it
more complex by saying,

1755
01:11:37,642 --> 01:11:39,687
there is that same mutualism...

1756
01:11:39,718 --> 01:11:41,718
- at the higher level as well.
- Yes.

1757
01:11:41,464 --> 01:11:44,431
In fact, the entire
world has mutualism.

1758
01:11:44,546 --> 01:11:46,595
It's impossible to think...

1759
01:11:46,642 --> 01:11:48,924
that all of this could have happened...

1760
01:11:49,017 --> 01:11:53,083
just by a series of slow processes
over billions of years.

1761
01:11:53,108 --> 01:11:55,532
That's exactly what I'm saying.

1762
01:11:57,963 --> 01:12:00,963
It's clear that the world we live in...

1763
01:11:59,971 --> 01:12:02,190
is incredibly interdependent.

1764
01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:04,675
From the smallest biological system...

1765
01:12:04,706 --> 01:12:06,963
to the largest ecosystem.

1766
01:12:07,069 --> 01:12:10,728
There are complex mutual
relationships everywhere.

1767
01:12:10,884 --> 01:12:14,577
I realized the creation in six days
makes the most sense,

1768
01:12:14,602 --> 01:12:16,329
from an engineering perspective.

1769
01:12:16,411 --> 01:12:18,515
You need everything working together

1770
01:12:18,561 --> 01:12:20,031
at the same time

1771
01:12:20,093 --> 01:12:22,466
for everything to function properly.

1772
01:12:22,561 --> 01:12:26,507
And that's exactly how
Genesis says, God created it.

1773
01:12:26,780 --> 01:12:29,124
Rob also said,
God created animals

1774
01:12:29,149 --> 01:12:30,874
with the ability to change

1775
01:12:30,899 --> 01:12:33,171
and adapt to their environments.

1776
01:12:33,233 --> 01:12:36,182
Is it possible, this ability to change...

1777
01:12:36,202 --> 01:12:38,835
has been mistaken for evolution?

1778
01:12:45,811 --> 01:12:48,811
As Todd Wood and I
walk through the zoo,

1779
01:12:47,944 --> 01:12:50,741
we saw incredible beauty
and amazing design

1780
01:12:50,788 --> 01:12:52,053
wherever we looked.

1781
01:12:52,147 --> 01:12:54,899
I noticed the great diversity
between some animals,

1782
01:12:54,930 --> 01:12:58,571
as well as a remarkable
similarity of others.

1783
01:12:59,704 --> 01:13:01,305
As, as a biologist,

1784
01:13:01,347 --> 01:13:04,415
what do you see when
you see all of these creatures?

1785
01:13:04,516 --> 01:13:06,516
Yeah, when I look at this,...

1786
01:13:06,071 --> 01:13:07,602
look at these lions,...

1787
01:13:07,634 --> 01:13:09,675
specifically, I'm seeing cats.

1788
01:13:09,706 --> 01:13:13,706
And so, and all the other cats
they have here at the zoo,

1789
01:13:13,235 --> 01:13:15,801
they all have this underlining...

1790
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:17,552
catness to them...

1791
01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:19,155
- Hhh.
- that's really apparent.

1792
01:13:19,201 --> 01:13:23,746
It's really apparent when
they start playing, right?

1793
01:13:23,795 --> 01:13:27,795
You see them play with some sort of ball
or something and they look...

1794
01:13:26,819 --> 01:13:29,819
- Look just like a cat.
- They look like a cat.

1795
01:13:28,991 --> 01:13:32,061
You know, scientists would put that
to a family called Felidae.

1796
01:13:32,123 --> 01:13:34,319
And I would understand
the felines to be...

1797
01:13:34,344 --> 01:13:36,362
representatives of a single created kind.

1798
01:13:36,387 --> 01:13:37,516
So the continuity,

1799
01:13:37,541 --> 01:13:40,032
the similarity there is so significant...

1800
01:13:40,063 --> 01:13:41,235
that I'd say, yeah,

1801
01:13:41,267 --> 01:13:43,688
these guys are all
descended from a single...

1802
01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:44,938
pair of critters...

1803
01:13:44,993 --> 01:13:46,993
- Hhh.
- that was on the ark...

1804
01:13:46,563 --> 01:13:50,452
and that eventually generated
all the different sorts of cats

1805
01:13:50,477 --> 01:13:51,625
that we have today.

1806
01:13:51,665 --> 01:13:55,839
So rather than just uh,
a, a random accident,...

1807
01:13:55,909 --> 01:13:59,587
it appears as if all of these
different species are coming

1808
01:13:59,603 --> 01:14:00,634
from a really

1809
01:14:00,659 --> 01:14:03,084
- elaborate design.
- Oh, absolutely.

1810
01:14:03,111 --> 01:14:06,111
And it's not just the design,
like God, you know,

1811
01:14:05,177 --> 01:14:06,534
designed and created the lion,

1812
01:14:06,565 --> 01:14:09,565
it's God created something
that could make a lion.

1813
01:14:09,147 --> 01:14:12,147
- Uh-huh.
- So it's more like, you know,

1814
01:14:10,796 --> 01:14:13,796
a multi-purpose tool
or a Swiss Army knife,

1815
01:14:12,420 --> 01:14:17,420
where you got all these pieces that
you just pop out whenever you need them,

1816
01:14:15,427 --> 01:14:17,427
but it's all just one thing.

1817
01:14:17,052 --> 01:14:20,231
So give me some other
examples of created kinds.

1818
01:14:20,263 --> 01:14:23,359
Yes, so, you got the grizzly
and the polar bear.

1819
01:14:23,406 --> 01:14:25,406
Those are all members
of the bear kind.

1820
01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:27,935
You got ducks, swans and geese.

1821
01:14:28,001 --> 01:14:31,001
The thing about the dog kind
is really interesting.

1822
01:14:30,303 --> 01:14:33,326
So, you take just
this wolf-like creature...

1823
01:14:33,389 --> 01:14:36,389
and we can breed in only
a few hundred years...

1824
01:14:36,115 --> 01:14:37,797
many different breeds.

1825
01:14:37,953 --> 01:14:39,953
Well, Todd, that's kind of
fascinating now,

1826
01:14:39,939 --> 01:14:42,119
to think about
what God was doing

1827
01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:43,604
when He was bringing

1828
01:14:43,633 --> 01:14:45,494
uh, two of every kind.

1829
01:14:45,525 --> 01:14:47,525
What do you think
was going on there?

1830
01:14:47,064 --> 01:14:49,064
Oh yeah.
I mean, He's...

1831
01:14:48,533 --> 01:14:52,533
He doesn't have to bring
every little variety onto the ark.

1832
01:14:52,496 --> 01:14:54,496
So when you actually
do the calculations,

1833
01:14:54,504 --> 01:14:56,504
and, okay, so we don't know exactly

1834
01:14:55,951 --> 01:14:58,951
how many created kinds
that were on the ark.

1835
01:14:57,820 --> 01:14:59,663
Maybe, couple thousands,...

1836
01:14:59,688 --> 01:15:00,709
and they're small.

1837
01:15:00,734 --> 01:15:02,312
Most animals are quite small.

1838
01:15:02,343 --> 01:15:04,343
So, you have room to spare.

1839
01:15:04,164 --> 01:15:05,656
- Literally, room to spare.
- Hhh.

1840
01:15:05,693 --> 01:15:08,693
And all of that diversity
that we have today

1841
01:15:08,312 --> 01:15:11,312
is built in to those two of a kind.

1842
01:15:14,311 --> 01:15:17,311
Well Todd, we're looking
at the zebras and...

1843
01:15:16,671 --> 01:15:17,864
they're all unique,

1844
01:15:17,889 --> 01:15:19,889
and yet all of these creatures,

1845
01:15:19,631 --> 01:15:23,045
there is so much
complexity and diversity.

1846
01:15:23,084 --> 01:15:25,005
How does the standard story,

1847
01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:28,092
the conventional paradigm,
explain all of that?

1848
01:15:28,178 --> 01:15:30,225
Well, they would use evolution, right?

1849
01:15:30,257 --> 01:15:31,188
So...

1850
01:15:31,227 --> 01:15:32,578
Millions of years,

1851
01:15:32,617 --> 01:15:34,360
random variations,

1852
01:15:34,406 --> 01:15:37,196
all things that are alive now,

1853
01:15:37,329 --> 01:15:39,774
that cactus,
that zebra,...

1854
01:15:39,837 --> 01:15:42,257
the grass here, is all related.

1855
01:15:42,282 --> 01:15:45,282
We all go back to a common
ancestor that lived

1856
01:15:44,727 --> 01:15:46,243
billions of years ago.

1857
01:15:46,313 --> 01:15:51,095
And through the process of mutation
and genetic variation...

1858
01:15:51,157 --> 01:15:52,852
uh, and natural selection,

1859
01:15:52,877 --> 01:15:56,877
and that's where we get
the stuffs that we have today.

1860
01:15:55,368 --> 01:15:57,720
So, natural selection...

1861
01:15:57,775 --> 01:15:59,406
uh, what is it?

1862
01:15:59,431 --> 01:16:01,431
Does it have the kind of creative

1863
01:16:01,459 --> 01:16:03,910
potential that we need
for all of this?

1864
01:16:04,011 --> 01:16:07,205
Natural selection uh,
is basically all about

1865
01:16:07,230 --> 01:16:10,230
killing off things that aren't
fit for the environment.

1866
01:16:09,621 --> 01:16:13,066
So, if you're a finch
in the Galapagos,...

1867
01:16:13,105 --> 01:16:15,175
and you have a really tiny beak,...

1868
01:16:15,222 --> 01:16:18,222
and the only food
available to you is really

1869
01:16:17,269 --> 01:16:18,947
- big hard seeds,...
- Uh-huh.

1870
01:16:18,972 --> 01:16:20,142
you're gonna die.

1871
01:16:20,167 --> 01:16:22,167
And that's exactly what we observe.

1872
01:16:21,902 --> 01:16:23,964
And so, we can watch
over the generations

1873
01:16:24,003 --> 01:16:26,410
that the beak sizes
of finches change

1874
01:16:26,457 --> 01:16:27,691
in the Galapagos.

1875
01:16:27,746 --> 01:16:29,316
But, they're still finches.

1876
01:16:29,371 --> 01:16:30,863
They're still birds.

1877
01:16:30,933 --> 01:16:33,667
The notion that natural
selection can generate

1878
01:16:33,699 --> 01:16:35,699
all of the diversity we see,

1879
01:16:34,941 --> 01:16:36,527
that's not been demonstrated.

1880
01:16:36,557 --> 01:16:37,666
- Uh-huh.
- What we find,

1881
01:16:37,691 --> 01:16:39,471
most often,
with natural selection

1882
01:16:39,496 --> 01:16:42,496
is that natural selection
does a lot of fine tunings.

1883
01:16:42,209 --> 01:16:45,209
So right over here,
we got these oryxes, right?

1884
01:16:44,529 --> 01:16:45,951
Beautiful creatures,...

1885
01:16:45,991 --> 01:16:48,506
and very, very pale colors.

1886
01:16:48,553 --> 01:16:53,657
The wild ranges of the oryx is right on
the southern end of Sahara Desert.

1887
01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:55,750
- And so you can see...
- Uh-huh.

1888
01:16:55,274 --> 01:16:57,032
yeah, their coloration makes sense.

1889
01:16:57,063 --> 01:16:59,063
If you get a really dark color one

1890
01:16:58,735 --> 01:17:00,735
that's gonna be very easy for

1891
01:17:00,157 --> 01:17:01,524
- predators to find,
- Uh-huh.

1892
01:17:01,555 --> 01:17:04,870
and so they end up being
these really beautiful light colors.

1893
01:17:04,925 --> 01:17:08,253
Uh, and that's an example of
where selection would take...

1894
01:17:08,300 --> 01:17:11,458
a variation and turn it
into an adaptation.

1895
01:17:11,521 --> 01:17:14,521
And that brings us back
to the notion that...

1896
01:17:14,365 --> 01:17:17,154
a really exquisite design
in the beginning.

1897
01:17:17,179 --> 01:17:18,191
- Oh, I think so.
- It...

1898
01:17:18,216 --> 01:17:19,310
- Oh, absolutely.
- Uh-huh.

1899
01:17:19,365 --> 01:17:21,826
It has provided these creatures
with the ability

1900
01:17:21,865 --> 01:17:24,591
to survive and to, to change

1901
01:17:24,630 --> 01:17:26,257
- for their benefit.
- Absolutely.

1902
01:17:26,296 --> 01:17:30,296
So the ability to be able
to change your coloration like that,

1903
01:17:29,867 --> 01:17:31,867
to be able to fit in an environment,

1904
01:17:31,554 --> 01:17:35,554
that's got to be built into
the system before it starts.

1905
01:17:34,970 --> 01:17:36,970
Now, don't get me wrong.

1906
01:17:36,011 --> 01:17:40,011
I mean, that those selections and
random variations can do amazing things.

1907
01:17:39,306 --> 01:17:41,558
I mean, it, it's pretty astonishing...

1908
01:17:41,668 --> 01:17:44,230
the kind of changes that we can see,...

1909
01:17:44,281 --> 01:17:47,281
but we don't see one kind
changing into another.

1910
01:17:47,285 --> 01:17:49,058
All we see are variations...

1911
01:17:49,098 --> 01:17:51,098
- that happened within a created kind.
- Uh-huh.

1912
01:17:51,068 --> 01:17:55,068
There is a felid tree
which has all the cats on it.

1913
01:17:53,691 --> 01:17:57,691
There is a canid tree
which has all the dogs on it.

1914
01:17:56,128 --> 01:18:00,128
There is an ursid tree
which has all the bears on it.

1915
01:17:58,786 --> 01:18:01,786
There is an equid tree
with all the horses on it.

1916
01:18:00,810 --> 01:18:05,187
Each individual created kind then
has its own individual tree.

1917
01:18:05,218 --> 01:18:09,218
So that you end up with
something like an orchard or forest.

1918
01:18:08,289 --> 01:18:09,546
As a scientist,

1919
01:18:09,571 --> 01:18:12,648
it seems, what you're saying is
the Genesis paradigm...

1920
01:18:12,687 --> 01:18:15,484
answers all of this data better.

1921
01:18:15,570 --> 01:18:16,945
Ultimately, I think it does,

1922
01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:19,976
because it embraces both
similarity and difference.

1923
01:18:20,031 --> 01:18:21,539
Now, as we already said,

1924
01:18:21,564 --> 01:18:25,564
there are just, there are a lot of
questions that are still out there.

1925
01:18:25,017 --> 01:18:26,025
But,...

1926
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:28,471
uh, I'm pretty confident,
given what...

1927
01:18:28,525 --> 01:18:29,953
our paradigm can explain,

1928
01:18:29,978 --> 01:18:33,978
I am very confident that those
answers are going to be found.

1929
01:18:34,214 --> 01:18:35,775
After we left the zebras,

1930
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,800
we made our way to the gorillas.

1931
01:18:37,652 --> 01:18:41,763
Todd wanted to talk about
the question of human evolution.

1932
01:18:42,256 --> 01:18:44,256
Todd, we see it all the time,

1933
01:18:43,891 --> 01:18:46,212
a new discovery,
new skulls,...

1934
01:18:46,256 --> 01:18:48,008
new skeletons that...

1935
01:18:48,071 --> 01:18:51,594
supposedly solidify this whole link.

1936
01:18:51,667 --> 01:18:53,667
- Yeah.
- What do you see there?

1937
01:18:53,432 --> 01:18:56,432
Absolutely. Well, I got some
right here in my bag.

1938
01:18:57,284 --> 01:18:58,354
Oh, a skull.

1939
01:18:58,379 --> 01:19:00,143
So, this guy...

1940
01:19:00,550 --> 01:19:03,346
is a Neandertal.

1941
01:19:03,550 --> 01:19:05,357
Very, very low forehead.

1942
01:19:05,404 --> 01:19:07,631
- To we have very tall foreheads.
- Uh-huh.

1943
01:19:07,693 --> 01:19:09,521
Uh, the face,

1944
01:19:09,576 --> 01:19:11,724
the mid-face has been pulled out.

1945
01:19:11,779 --> 01:19:14,130
- Uh-huh.
- Uh, but at the same time,...

1946
01:19:14,217 --> 01:19:15,950
well, it looks very human.

1947
01:19:16,005 --> 01:19:18,005
- So that's the Neandertal.
- Okay.

1948
01:19:17,069 --> 01:19:20,069
- You want to hold it on for me?
- Yeah, yeah.

1949
01:19:18,075 --> 01:19:18,904
Okay?

1950
01:19:18,966 --> 01:19:20,966
We have others
that are very different.

1951
01:19:20,998 --> 01:19:22,247
Oh, yeah.

1952
01:19:22,287 --> 01:19:24,428
Now, this one is...

1953
01:19:24,513 --> 01:19:26,419
Australopithecus Africanus.

1954
01:19:26,458 --> 01:19:27,733
So, you can see,...

1955
01:19:27,781 --> 01:19:29,685
really no forehead at all.

1956
01:19:29,710 --> 01:19:31,710
- It's just slopes right back.
- Uh-huh.

1957
01:19:31,304 --> 01:19:33,718
Very, very small brain case,...

1958
01:19:33,781 --> 01:19:36,336
uh, muscle sticks way out,...

1959
01:19:36,413 --> 01:19:39,532
so the flace faces slope forward.

1960
01:19:39,784 --> 01:19:41,784
What do you do with this stuff?

1961
01:19:41,485 --> 01:19:44,485
I mean, there is many more
that we can show,

1962
01:19:43,270 --> 01:19:45,270
many more pictures,
many more skulls,

1963
01:19:44,911 --> 01:19:46,911
and you can see looking at the...

1964
01:19:46,354 --> 01:19:49,354
- Bringing them together, they're really...
- Yeah. Uh-huh.

1965
01:19:49,090 --> 01:19:51,090
- There is a lot of difference there.
- Yeah.

1966
01:19:51,137 --> 01:19:52,541
Well, here's the thing.

1967
01:19:52,576 --> 01:19:55,576
So all that created kind stuffs
that we already talked about,

1968
01:19:55,287 --> 01:19:56,842
I can show...

1969
01:19:56,889 --> 01:20:00,100
again and again and again
with multiple studies...

1970
01:20:00,180 --> 01:20:03,758
that I can find the discontinuity
between humans...

1971
01:20:03,821 --> 01:20:05,587
and nonhumans.

1972
01:20:05,633 --> 01:20:07,899
So this thing lands
on the human side.

1973
01:20:07,926 --> 01:20:11,526
This Neandertal here is one of us.

1974
01:20:11,643 --> 01:20:13,666
- This thing is not.
- Hhh.

1975
01:20:13,697 --> 01:20:14,838
It is different.

1976
01:20:14,877 --> 01:20:17,877
But, this would be just
another one of those...

1977
01:20:17,137 --> 01:20:20,527
varieties of living things that
God made in the beginning

1978
01:20:20,559 --> 01:20:23,559
and it survive the flood
and board the ark.

1979
01:20:22,856 --> 01:20:26,467
So when we look at uh,
Neanderthal man,...

1980
01:20:26,624 --> 01:20:29,952
uh, we're looking at a, a human,...

1981
01:20:30,085 --> 01:20:34,085
uh, but it's a human that
just like we find in dogs,

1982
01:20:33,631 --> 01:20:36,631
we have a lot of
varieties of, of dogs...

1983
01:20:36,335 --> 01:20:38,335
We got a lot of varieties of people.

1984
01:20:38,181 --> 01:20:40,181
So even looking back here at the gorilla,

1985
01:20:39,939 --> 01:20:40,946
we can see...

1986
01:20:40,985 --> 01:20:43,252
the obvious differences
between us and him.

1987
01:20:43,287 --> 01:20:46,287
Not the least of which is
that he's in there...

1988
01:20:45,167 --> 01:20:48,167
and we, we can go home
when we're done.

1989
01:20:47,177 --> 01:20:50,833
And so those differences
are really huge, aren't they?

1990
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:52,607
Uh, yeah, absolutely.

1991
01:20:52,653 --> 01:20:53,966
The image of God...

1992
01:20:54,029 --> 01:20:56,317
entails this idea of...

1993
01:20:56,380 --> 01:20:58,724
being God's representatives
here on this Earth.

1994
01:20:58,763 --> 01:21:01,825
Part of that, there is having
dominion and having authority.

1995
01:21:01,864 --> 01:21:03,864
A spiritual quality
that we have, you know,

1996
01:21:03,888 --> 01:21:05,888
- that we don't share...
- Uh-huh.

1997
01:21:05,484 --> 01:21:07,444
- with animals like that.
- Yeah.

1998
01:21:08,527 --> 01:21:11,527
It's obvious we're different
from the rest of creation.

1999
01:21:11,163 --> 01:21:13,372
Because we were made in God's image.

2000
01:21:13,431 --> 01:21:15,431
We're the only ones to create zoos.

2001
01:21:15,290 --> 01:21:18,290
So, we can see the beauty
of God's animals.

2002
01:21:17,790 --> 01:21:20,024
And we're unique in tracking time

2003
01:21:20,049 --> 01:21:22,356
and want to know our own history.

2004
01:21:22,459 --> 01:21:25,903
But, where does our concept
of time come from?

2005
01:21:38,058 --> 01:21:39,925
It was a beautiful night.

2006
01:21:40,003 --> 01:21:42,003
Danny took me far outside the city.

2007
01:21:41,924 --> 01:21:43,924
And kept me up very late

2008
01:21:43,300 --> 01:21:46,729
in order to show something
I will never forget.

2009
01:21:48,636 --> 01:21:49,925
Oh my goodness!

2010
01:21:49,956 --> 01:21:52,956
Now you're gonna
make me buy a telescope.

2011
01:21:54,455 --> 01:21:58,455
You know, we have some purposes
that were given from the stars.

2012
01:21:57,058 --> 01:22:00,360
In, in Genesis 1:14 to 19,
that's day 4...

2013
01:22:00,391 --> 01:22:03,391
uh, creation calendar, mentions
the stars and other heavenly bodies

2014
01:22:03,190 --> 01:22:04,214
- that mark time,
- Hhh.

2015
01:22:04,249 --> 01:22:07,249
to rule over the night,
to be for sign,

2016
01:22:06,103 --> 01:22:08,033
seasons, festivals and so forth.

2017
01:22:08,079 --> 01:22:10,079
Uh, people have been using the stars

2018
01:22:10,119 --> 01:22:12,728
- for, for marking, passing of time.
- Uh-huh.

2019
01:22:12,753 --> 01:22:14,556
The patterns repeat every night.

2020
01:22:14,581 --> 01:22:15,728
They repeated every year.

2021
01:22:15,753 --> 01:22:17,071
They, they come back.

2022
01:22:17,095 --> 01:22:18,204
And the season,

2023
01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:21,229
- it's a lot of regularity going on here.
- Uh-huh.

2024
01:22:20,673 --> 01:22:23,673
Uh, what about the design
of the sun and the moon?

2025
01:22:23,354 --> 01:22:26,354
Well, there're a couple of things
I can talk about.

2026
01:22:24,899 --> 01:22:28,899
On rare occasions, the, the moon
passes between us and our sun.

2027
01:22:28,254 --> 01:22:30,254
- Uh-huh.
- Doesn't happen very often.

2028
01:22:29,792 --> 01:22:31,174
And when that happens,

2029
01:22:31,199 --> 01:22:34,199
the, the moon just barely
covers the sun up.

2030
01:22:33,654 --> 01:22:36,654
If the moon were a little smaller
or little farther away,

2031
01:22:36,557 --> 01:22:38,557
it wouldn't do it at all.

2032
01:22:38,113 --> 01:22:40,629
If it were larger or closer to us,

2033
01:22:40,668 --> 01:22:42,668
it would be grossly over total.

2034
01:22:42,536 --> 01:22:43,551
- Uh-huh.
- And uh,

2035
01:22:43,591 --> 01:22:46,479
So these eclipses are,
are spectacular and rare,

2036
01:22:46,504 --> 01:22:49,504
and this is the only planet
on which it matters.

2037
01:22:49,226 --> 01:22:52,226
And it's the only planet
on which it happens.

2038
01:22:51,429 --> 01:22:55,429
And you got to think either just
that's the way the world is,...

2039
01:22:54,892 --> 01:22:56,642
for no apparent reason,...

2040
01:22:56,677 --> 01:22:59,689
or the world is that way
for a purpose and design.

2041
01:22:59,721 --> 01:23:01,853
And to me,
that speaks of creation.

2042
01:23:02,270 --> 01:23:03,512
Okay, high over head here,

2043
01:23:03,537 --> 01:23:05,537
we have the great square of Pegasus.

2044
01:23:05,201 --> 01:23:06,817
it is this big regtangle.

2045
01:23:06,842 --> 01:23:10,842
Now coming off of Pegasus is
a little fuzzy spot right there.

2046
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:11,304
- You see it?
- Yeah.

2047
01:23:11,329 --> 01:23:12,954
That's the Andromeda Galaxy.

2048
01:23:13,039 --> 01:23:17,039
That is the most distant object
that you can see with the naked eye.

2049
01:23:16,750 --> 01:23:19,750
It's a little over,
we think, a little over

2050
01:23:18,477 --> 01:23:19,735
two million light years away,

2051
01:23:19,766 --> 01:23:21,766
and it contains a couple
hundred billion stars.

2052
01:23:21,774 --> 01:23:22,501
Wow.

2053
01:23:22,526 --> 01:23:24,526
Okay, Danny,
that brings me to...

2054
01:23:24,397 --> 01:23:28,397
a big question, a big question
in a lot of people's minds.

2055
01:23:27,593 --> 01:23:30,822
If we have stars
that are that far away,

2056
01:23:30,847 --> 01:23:32,999
million of light years away,

2057
01:23:33,132 --> 01:23:35,452
and if the Earth is young,

2058
01:23:35,515 --> 01:23:37,281
as we believe,

2059
01:23:37,384 --> 01:23:40,740
then how in the world
can the starlight be here?

2060
01:23:40,765 --> 01:23:41,413
Yeah.

2061
01:23:41,438 --> 01:23:44,438
We call this the, the light
travel time problem.

2062
01:23:44,241 --> 01:23:48,241
And I'll try to phrase it for you
little, little differently.

2063
01:23:47,108 --> 01:23:51,108
Uh, we believe that if creation is
only thousands of years old,

2064
01:23:50,882 --> 01:23:53,140
uh, say 6,000 years,
7,000 years,

2065
01:23:53,165 --> 01:23:54,429
- something like that.
- Uh-huh.

2066
01:23:54,454 --> 01:23:56,454
And I just pointed out
something to you

2067
01:23:56,057 --> 01:24:00,057
that we think, it's 2 million
light years away from us.

2068
01:23:58,361 --> 01:24:00,572
I think those distances
are reasonably correct.

2069
01:24:00,618 --> 01:24:03,618
And uh, we creationists
need to answer this question.

2070
01:24:03,097 --> 01:24:06,761
And we've offered several
different solutions to that.

2071
01:24:06,801 --> 01:24:09,589
- I'll discuss with you my solution...
- OK.

2072
01:24:09,628 --> 01:24:10,667
on this.

2073
01:24:10,701 --> 01:24:13,701
Several, several things jump out
at me in the creation account.

2074
01:24:13,128 --> 01:24:16,128
One, there are a lot
of process going on,

2075
01:24:15,704 --> 01:24:18,242
very rapid process, but still process.

2076
01:24:18,279 --> 01:24:21,279
Uh, if you look at
the day 3 account,

2077
01:24:19,861 --> 01:24:22,861
it talks about plants,
rising up above the ground.

2078
01:24:22,271 --> 01:24:25,271
It says, let the Earth
bring forth these plants,

2079
01:24:24,844 --> 01:24:26,174
and the Earth brought forth.

2080
01:24:26,213 --> 01:24:30,213
I think if you would have been there,
it would have looked like

2081
01:24:28,023 --> 01:24:29,815
- a time lapse movie.
- Hhh.

2082
01:24:29,846 --> 01:24:31,893
Growth might take normally decades,

2083
01:24:31,940 --> 01:24:35,940
taking place in a matter of minutes
or hours at the most.

2084
01:24:35,663 --> 01:24:36,911
Uh, normal growth,...

2085
01:24:36,958 --> 01:24:39,278
- abnormally fast.
- Hhh.

2086
01:24:39,372 --> 01:24:40,676
I believe, you can interpret...

2087
01:24:40,701 --> 01:24:43,701
one day of creation
in terms of another day.

2088
01:24:42,958 --> 01:24:44,958
So I turn to the day 4 account,

2089
01:24:44,608 --> 01:24:46,608
not much information is given there.

2090
01:24:46,155 --> 01:24:49,155
But I think, God also
rapidly made the stars

2091
01:24:49,044 --> 01:24:50,669
and other astronomical bodies.

2092
01:24:50,700 --> 01:24:54,700
And then, in order for them
to fulfill their function to be seen,

2093
01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:56,598
He had to rapidly
bring forth that light.

2094
01:24:56,625 --> 01:24:59,176
Just as He brought plants
and matured quickly,

2095
01:24:59,229 --> 01:25:01,229
- He had to bring light here.
- Uh-huh.

2096
01:25:01,229 --> 01:25:04,229
I'm suggesting when we
actually look at these objects,

2097
01:25:03,707 --> 01:25:06,707
like the Andromeda galaxy
we saw a few minutes ago,

2098
01:25:06,272 --> 01:25:09,379
we're looking at light
that actually left that object.

2099
01:25:09,404 --> 01:25:10,044
Yes.

2100
01:25:10,075 --> 01:25:12,075
So I think, there is rapid maturing

2101
01:25:11,601 --> 01:25:12,788
- took place.
- Yeah.

2102
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:16,138
Danny, are there some
other things that you see

2103
01:25:16,163 --> 01:25:19,654
that would point to
a young universe?

2104
01:25:19,689 --> 01:25:20,800
I think so.

2105
01:25:20,839 --> 01:25:22,786
For instance, uh, spiral galaxies.

2106
01:25:22,811 --> 01:25:24,811
So, Andromeda Galaxy,
we talked about,

2107
01:25:24,724 --> 01:25:26,724
- is a spiral galaxy.
- Uh-huh.

2108
01:25:25,950 --> 01:25:27,122
Our own is.

2109
01:25:27,162 --> 01:25:30,396
And the inside of the galaxies
should spin faster

2110
01:25:30,421 --> 01:25:32,421
than the outside of the galaxies.

2111
01:25:31,794 --> 01:25:33,419
So after few rotations,

2112
01:25:33,490 --> 01:25:35,904
you ought to wind up or smear out.

2113
01:25:35,942 --> 01:25:37,107
Those, those spiral patterns,

2114
01:25:37,138 --> 01:25:39,507
they ought to disappear
after few rotations.

2115
01:25:39,548 --> 01:25:42,548
Now, most astronomers think
that the spiral galaxies are

2116
01:25:42,099 --> 01:25:43,177
10 billion years old.

2117
01:25:43,216 --> 01:25:45,730
So, why do we still see
spiral patterns?

2118
01:25:45,755 --> 01:25:47,755
- You shouldn't see those.
- Right.

2119
01:25:47,193 --> 01:25:50,193
And it has been long
recognized this is problem.

2120
01:25:49,443 --> 01:25:51,443
But also, if we look at the um,

2121
01:25:51,265 --> 01:25:54,265
the outer planets of the solar
system, the gas giants,

2122
01:25:53,701 --> 01:25:54,803
they all have rings.

2123
01:25:54,845 --> 01:25:57,845
And we also know that
these things are changing.

2124
01:25:57,663 --> 01:25:58,794
They're wiping out.

2125
01:25:58,833 --> 01:26:02,833
They've actually documented changes that
have taken place within the ring system.

2126
01:26:02,228 --> 01:26:06,228
You have all these gravitational tugs
from the other satellites, orbiting around.

2127
01:26:06,153 --> 01:26:08,928
So these ring systems are fairly young.

2128
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:11,960
Doesn't prove that
the solar system is young,

2129
01:26:10,750 --> 01:26:13,750
but it proves that these
ring systems are young.

2130
01:26:12,711 --> 01:26:14,711
- Uh-huh.
- And that's interesting.

2131
01:26:14,296 --> 01:26:16,296
Well, you mentioned a, a lot of...

2132
01:26:16,163 --> 01:26:19,210
theories about the spirals
and, and so forth,...

2133
01:26:19,249 --> 01:26:20,983
uh, that brings us to...

2134
01:26:21,022 --> 01:26:23,413
what most people see as the big theory,

2135
01:26:23,460 --> 01:26:25,997
- concerning cosmology and the universe,
- Uh-huh.

2136
01:26:26,015 --> 01:26:27,554
and that the Big Bang.

2137
01:26:27,608 --> 01:26:29,608
Uh, how do you see that?

2138
01:26:29,275 --> 01:26:31,275
Is it holding up over time?

2139
01:26:31,244 --> 01:26:32,250
I don't think so.

2140
01:26:32,275 --> 01:26:35,275
I think it's, it's getting
some problems.

2141
01:26:34,728 --> 01:26:36,189
- Hhh.
- So much so that

2142
01:26:36,214 --> 01:26:38,214
more than a dozen years ago,

2143
01:26:37,693 --> 01:26:39,693
I think, in New Scientist Magazine,

2144
01:26:39,128 --> 01:26:42,128
there was an open letter,
protesting the Big Bang theory.

2145
01:26:41,728 --> 01:26:43,847
And it has hundreds of signatures since.

2146
01:26:43,878 --> 01:26:45,878
And most people signing are atheists.

2147
01:26:45,707 --> 01:26:47,463
They are not even creationists.

2148
01:26:47,488 --> 01:26:51,488
So, this idea that the Big Bang model's
universally accepted is not true.

2149
01:26:51,161 --> 01:26:53,161
There are many people out there,

2150
01:26:52,511 --> 01:26:54,168
well, well, known people,

2151
01:26:54,199 --> 01:26:56,894
very famous physic
and astronomy people

2152
01:26:56,933 --> 01:26:58,933
that have real problems with the Big Bang.

2153
01:26:58,916 --> 01:27:02,916
And, and I don't see any way
that you can reconcile

2154
01:27:01,952 --> 01:27:03,952
the Big Bang with the Bible,

2155
01:27:03,326 --> 01:27:06,326
though, a lot of people
seem to think that you can.

2156
01:27:05,498 --> 01:27:07,498
I think, the temptation
they have there

2157
01:27:07,209 --> 01:27:08,811
is to try to interpret...

2158
01:27:08,849 --> 01:27:12,449
uh, Scripture in terms of
the current cosmological thinking.

2159
01:27:12,474 --> 01:27:14,863
That's nothing new.
That has happened before,

2160
01:27:14,895 --> 01:27:17,231
as it turns out,
with disastrous results.

2161
01:27:17,277 --> 01:27:21,277
So I, I think when you look at
the history of science,

2162
01:27:19,717 --> 01:27:21,920
the way we have discarded
theories over time,

2163
01:27:21,952 --> 01:27:24,311
We've had theories
that were supposedly...

2164
01:27:24,390 --> 01:27:26,775
uh, beyond dispute...

2165
01:27:26,814 --> 01:27:28,827
- Uh-huh.
- and then later on discarded.

2166
01:27:28,881 --> 01:27:31,898
Uh, when you see
that lesson from history

2167
01:27:31,923 --> 01:27:33,923
and then you want to wed Genesis,

2168
01:27:33,642 --> 01:27:36,642
you want to interpret Genesis
in terms of ruling paradigm,

2169
01:27:36,595 --> 01:27:39,595
- I think you need to be very careful.
- Hhh, yeah.

2170
01:27:40,566 --> 01:27:44,628
I realized, Danny was
re-orienting our perspective.

2171
01:27:44,823 --> 01:27:48,107
We need to interpret the Universe,
in terms of Genesis,

2172
01:27:48,154 --> 01:27:50,318
not the other way around.

2173
01:27:50,427 --> 01:27:54,711
And Genesis tells us that God
created the sun, moon, and stars

2174
01:27:54,742 --> 01:27:58,804
to be a magnificent clock
to track the passage of time.

2175
01:27:58,898 --> 01:28:02,359
Even the ancient built towers
to follow the stars.

2176
01:28:02,437 --> 01:28:04,951
But what does Genesis say
about those people

2177
01:28:04,976 --> 01:28:07,344
and the languages ​​they spoke?

2178
01:28:16,522 --> 01:28:20,522
Doug took me to one of the best
archaeological museums in the world,

2179
01:28:20,522 --> 01:28:23,006
to show some of the unique artifacts

2180
01:28:23,061 --> 01:28:25,303
that relate to Genesis.

2181
01:28:26,763 --> 01:28:29,316
Well, the events of
the Bible are unfolded

2182
01:28:29,351 --> 01:28:30,621
in the ancient Near East.

2183
01:28:30,646 --> 01:28:34,601
So, all these lands are extremely
important to understanding...

2184
01:28:34,656 --> 01:28:37,671
uh, how and what took place
in the biblical text.

2185
01:28:37,726 --> 01:28:41,726
So, this picks up the events
we've been looking at in, in Genesis,

2186
01:28:41,103 --> 01:28:43,008
from Creation and the Flood,

2187
01:28:43,033 --> 01:28:46,033
and now, we're to
the dispersion of mankind

2188
01:28:45,871 --> 01:28:47,871
out of Noah and his family.

2189
01:28:47,605 --> 01:28:48,488
Exactly.

2190
01:28:48,535 --> 01:28:50,535
And the, the dispersion
would have taken place

2191
01:28:50,503 --> 01:28:53,824
somewhere in the mountain range
to the northwest of Mesopotamia.

2192
01:28:53,871 --> 01:28:57,871
And what we see in the biblical text
and the narrative is that

2193
01:28:56,989 --> 01:28:59,231
a number of people have migrated

2194
01:28:59,278 --> 01:29:03,109
uh, down to southern Mesopotamia,
to the land of Shinar,...

2195
01:29:03,134 --> 01:29:06,108
and move toward the process
of urbanization,

2196
01:29:06,163 --> 01:29:07,366
- Uh-huh.
- city living.

2197
01:29:07,413 --> 01:29:09,436
And that's the famous
Tower of Babel.

2198
01:29:09,483 --> 01:29:10,302
Absolutely.

2199
01:29:10,327 --> 01:29:12,327
Do we know where that is?

2200
01:29:12,061 --> 01:29:14,804
There are about 7 or 8 Babels,

2201
01:29:14,829 --> 01:29:16,821
- cities of Babel,
- Huh.

2202
01:29:16,853 --> 01:29:19,235
in the ancient area of Mesopotamia.

2203
01:29:19,266 --> 01:29:23,266
And so, one at a time,
I studied all of those areas...

2204
01:29:22,032 --> 01:29:25,266
and found only one that
meets all the criteria of...

2205
01:29:25,321 --> 01:29:28,321
- the famous site of the Tower of Babel.
- Hhh.

2206
01:29:28,323 --> 01:29:30,323
And that is site of Eridu,

2207
01:29:30,245 --> 01:29:33,466
which is in southeastern Mesopotamia.

2208
01:29:33,513 --> 01:29:36,513
We have signs of
the expansion to the North,

2209
01:29:36,349 --> 01:29:38,763
to the South,
to the East,

2210
01:29:38,841 --> 01:29:41,841
to the West,
all the way as far as Egypt.

2211
01:29:41,781 --> 01:29:43,866
And when you say evidence, uh,

2212
01:29:43,906 --> 01:29:46,906
that is the artifacts
that we find in these...

2213
01:29:46,788 --> 01:29:48,146
archaeological digs?

2214
01:29:48,171 --> 01:29:50,235
Exactly.
There is an enormous

2215
01:29:50,275 --> 01:29:55,579
a, amount and very
specific kind of material culture...

2216
01:29:55,626 --> 01:29:58,277
that attest to this expansion of people.

2217
01:29:58,308 --> 01:30:01,457
And I'm connecting to
the post Babel dispersion.

2218
01:30:01,482 --> 01:30:03,494
Uh, here are the beveled rim bowls,

2219
01:30:03,519 --> 01:30:04,583
- these two,
- Uh-huh.

2220
01:30:04,608 --> 01:30:06,010
just that Riemchen brick...

2221
01:30:06,050 --> 01:30:08,050
- that we see up there,
- Oh, yeah.

2222
01:30:07,502 --> 01:30:10,080
and those two spouted jars,

2223
01:30:10,105 --> 01:30:14,474
all these diagnostic forms
of pottery and material culture,

2224
01:30:14,513 --> 01:30:16,724
they're found throughout the Near East.

2225
01:30:16,755 --> 01:30:20,755
The Bible describes an event that's not
just the confusion of language,

2226
01:30:20,435 --> 01:30:22,505
but the dispersing of people...

2227
01:30:22,537 --> 01:30:24,537
- far from that city.
- Uh-huh.

2228
01:30:24,420 --> 01:30:26,352
And because we see language

2229
01:30:26,399 --> 01:30:28,680
or, or the written
expression of language,

2230
01:30:28,727 --> 01:30:30,727
- just pop up out of nowhere.
- Hhh.

2231
01:30:30,549 --> 01:30:32,749
And then different languages

2232
01:30:32,774 --> 01:30:35,660
being represented
through cuneiform script

2233
01:30:35,692 --> 01:30:38,621
or through hieroglyphic script
or, or other means.

2234
01:30:38,653 --> 01:30:41,694
So you do not have
a universal plan

2235
01:30:41,726 --> 01:30:43,726
that's followed among
all of those languages.

2236
01:30:43,710 --> 01:30:47,353
You see great diversity
in the forms of grammar,

2237
01:30:47,384 --> 01:30:50,587
from language to language
even in ancient languages.

2238
01:30:50,641 --> 01:30:52,376
It, it seems then that

2239
01:30:52,401 --> 01:30:54,658
the event recorded in Genesis...

2240
01:30:54,689 --> 01:30:56,407
about the Tower of Babel,

2241
01:30:56,446 --> 01:30:59,518
that's a very, very event
for archeology.

2242
01:30:59,550 --> 01:31:00,470
It is.

2243
01:31:00,495 --> 01:31:02,573
So all of this fits perfectly

2244
01:31:02,612 --> 01:31:05,612
with what we, we would see
as the biblical account...

2245
01:31:05,143 --> 01:31:07,321
of how languages took place.

2246
01:31:07,346 --> 01:31:10,346
It's, it's really the only way
of explaining this.

2247
01:31:10,331 --> 01:31:12,503
So the integrity of biblical history,

2248
01:31:12,542 --> 01:31:14,331
ultimately, is justified,...

2249
01:31:14,393 --> 01:31:16,682
by the expression of these languages.

2250
01:31:16,729 --> 01:31:20,817
Now, most of us think today
of a tower the kind of thing

2251
01:31:20,850 --> 01:31:24,070
we see in big cities,
they have big straight walls.

2252
01:31:24,095 --> 01:31:26,095
Is that what they were building?

2253
01:31:25,686 --> 01:31:28,686
Well, essentially,
it's a variation of the pyramid.

2254
01:31:28,527 --> 01:31:30,527
And there were four sides to it

2255
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:33,160
and several stairways
that would go up to the top.

2256
01:31:33,089 --> 01:31:35,239
At Eridu,
we have a temple...

2257
01:31:35,279 --> 01:31:37,279
that existed in 18 different phases,

2258
01:31:37,304 --> 01:31:40,521
and in every phase,
it grew in its size and complexity.

2259
01:31:40,568 --> 01:31:41,394
Uh-huh.

2260
01:31:41,419 --> 01:31:44,659
And that final temple,
that final phase of the temple,

2261
01:31:44,694 --> 01:31:47,351
it was abandoned immediately,

2262
01:31:47,413 --> 01:31:49,593
right at the time
of the late Uruk

2263
01:31:49,632 --> 01:31:50,638
- expansion.
- Hhh.

2264
01:31:50,663 --> 01:31:56,488
Cater-cornered to the temple was
an absolutely enormous platform.

2265
01:31:56,535 --> 01:32:00,535
You think that could be the foundation
of the Tower of Babel?

2266
01:31:59,684 --> 01:32:00,462
Absolutely.

2267
01:32:00,487 --> 01:32:02,487
And I would suggest to you...

2268
01:32:02,049 --> 01:32:04,604
- that this late Uruk expansion...
- Hhh.

2269
01:32:04,659 --> 01:32:06,714
where this technology began...

2270
01:32:06,739 --> 01:32:08,870
was something that spread
with the people.

2271
01:32:08,909 --> 01:32:11,346
We find forms of these ziggurats...

2272
01:32:11,378 --> 01:32:13,581
all around the globe.

2273
01:32:13,612 --> 01:32:15,372
We find them in China.

2274
01:32:15,411 --> 01:32:16,880
We find them in India.

2275
01:32:16,927 --> 01:32:19,309
We find them in various parts of Americas.

2276
01:32:19,334 --> 01:32:21,334
- Hhh.
- We find them all over.

2277
01:32:20,949 --> 01:32:24,903
Well, obviously, we have
evidence here of civilization

2278
01:32:24,934 --> 01:32:28,366
and people beginning to gather
together in communities, even cities.

2279
01:32:28,428 --> 01:32:30,428
Do we have any
other evidence of that?

2280
01:32:30,264 --> 01:32:30,952
Absolutely.

2281
01:32:30,983 --> 01:32:33,983
We can move forward
to the time of Abraham.

2282
01:32:33,889 --> 01:32:36,889
Because we know that
Abraham lived at the site of Ur,

2283
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:39,365
which was also in
southern Mesopotamia...

2284
01:32:39,397 --> 01:32:42,196
at the end of
the third millennium BC.

2285
01:32:42,235 --> 01:32:45,235
That brings us to the end
of Genesis chapter 11.

2286
01:32:44,657 --> 01:32:45,540
Exactly.

2287
01:32:45,571 --> 01:32:49,633
In fact, you see some pottery,
some cuneiform tablets,

2288
01:32:49,665 --> 01:32:52,844
all dating to the period
of the Third Dynasty of Ur.

2289
01:32:52,869 --> 01:32:57,869
It, it's amazing just as we're sitting here
and thinking about that, you know,

2290
01:32:56,016 --> 01:32:58,321
thinking uh, about Abraham

2291
01:32:58,346 --> 01:33:02,969
and that this represents the culture
and civilization that he lived in.

2292
01:33:03,032 --> 01:33:06,032
It's a great tie to that
record in Genesis for.

2293
01:33:05,628 --> 01:33:08,628
It is fascinating and
it gives you a feeling of...

2294
01:33:07,987 --> 01:33:09,987
- put your hands around the events
- Hhh.

2295
01:33:09,973 --> 01:33:12,973
- that go on in the biblical text.
- Right. Yup.

2296
01:33:13,038 --> 01:33:14,780
When I looked through history,

2297
01:33:14,827 --> 01:33:16,873
I realized each of these cultures

2298
01:33:16,913 --> 01:33:20,553
had been impacted by
the events recorded in Genesis.

2299
01:33:20,623 --> 01:33:24,375
But, what is the importance
of Genesis to us today?

2300
01:33:32,580 --> 01:33:36,580
George Grant wanted to meet me
at a garden near his home.

2301
01:33:35,908 --> 01:33:39,939
He said it was a good reminder
of where our history began.

2302
01:33:40,650 --> 01:33:42,978
So it's something significant about

2303
01:33:43,018 --> 01:33:44,627
uh, the Genesis text

2304
01:33:44,666 --> 01:33:47,049
in which Adam and Eve
were then placed

2305
01:33:47,083 --> 01:33:49,356
into a garden to tend it.

2306
01:33:49,408 --> 01:33:51,408
Uh, that's more than just a story.

2307
01:33:51,371 --> 01:33:53,371
It's much more than just a story.

2308
01:33:53,256 --> 01:33:56,256
One of the things that
you see in Genesis chapter 1...

2309
01:33:56,248 --> 01:33:59,803
is the structure for time.

2310
01:33:59,842 --> 01:34:03,683
Uh, the universe is created
for a 24-hour day.

2311
01:34:03,708 --> 01:34:07,922
And so everything from
the way our sleep cycles

2312
01:34:07,947 --> 01:34:10,953
and the way our work cycles work,

2313
01:34:11,032 --> 01:34:12,819
all come from that

2314
01:34:12,851 --> 01:34:15,585
definitive historical account there.

2315
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:18,073
When we get to uh,
Genesis chapter 2,

2316
01:34:18,118 --> 01:34:21,118
we start to see the meaning
and purpose of man.

2317
01:34:20,843 --> 01:34:22,843
Of course,
in Genesis chapter 3,

2318
01:34:22,619 --> 01:34:26,189
we see disruption of
everything by the fall.

2319
01:34:26,263 --> 01:34:28,734
The implications of a historical fall,

2320
01:34:28,759 --> 01:34:31,353
an actual man and
an actual woman,

2321
01:34:31,384 --> 01:34:35,378
who actually yielded
to actual sin...

2322
01:34:35,449 --> 01:34:39,386
have then implications off
through the rest of the Bible.

2323
01:34:39,519 --> 01:34:42,396
If you remove a literal Adam and Eve,

2324
01:34:42,421 --> 01:34:46,271
That, that changes the whole
shape of what the history is...

2325
01:34:46,341 --> 01:34:48,654
and how history is remembered.

2326
01:34:48,740 --> 01:34:52,055
Is that because when
we pull an Adam and Eve

2327
01:34:52,090 --> 01:34:55,437
out of the historical record,

2328
01:34:55,484 --> 01:34:57,195
we can then pretty much...

2329
01:34:57,244 --> 01:34:59,758
make up what
we think about man,

2330
01:34:59,783 --> 01:35:02,531
and marriage,
and even sexuality?

2331
01:35:02,601 --> 01:35:04,023
Absolutely.

2332
01:35:04,054 --> 01:35:06,748
The apostle Paul
understood the events

2333
01:35:06,773 --> 01:35:09,963
of the uh, early chapters of Genesis

2334
01:35:09,994 --> 01:35:12,291
as formative, not only

2335
01:35:12,338 --> 01:35:14,046
for our understanding of history,

2336
01:35:14,081 --> 01:35:16,165
but for relationships

2337
01:35:16,212 --> 01:35:19,494
between men and women
and their children,

2338
01:35:19,548 --> 01:35:21,847
uh, the character and
nature of marriage,

2339
01:35:21,878 --> 01:35:27,325
uh, rightness and wrongness in
moral relations, including sexuality.

2340
01:35:27,364 --> 01:35:30,083
- All of that is assumed...
- Hhh.

2341
01:35:30,122 --> 01:35:32,716
from those early chapters of Genesis,

2342
01:35:32,755 --> 01:35:36,812
often time quoting the passages verbatim.

2343
01:35:36,866 --> 01:35:39,195
It, it seems that even Peters

2344
01:35:39,226 --> 01:35:44,007
is taking that event of the Flood,
for example, as a historic event,

2345
01:35:44,046 --> 01:35:45,843
and laying it in

2346
01:35:45,898 --> 01:35:50,265
the context of which is pointing to
a judgment that will, that will come.

2347
01:35:50,296 --> 01:35:52,296
So even judgment is a part...

2348
01:35:52,251 --> 01:35:54,876
of, of understanding
that historical record.

2349
01:35:54,923 --> 01:35:57,900
You cut things off from history...

2350
01:35:58,876 --> 01:36:02,260
and lose sight of the meaning of all of it.

2351
01:36:02,337 --> 01:36:05,675
I think most Christians,
uh, when we talk about...

2352
01:36:05,722 --> 01:36:07,766
uh, for example,
the life of Christ,

2353
01:36:07,801 --> 01:36:10,576
those are understood
to be historical...

2354
01:36:10,632 --> 01:36:11,936
- accounts.
- Right.

2355
01:36:11,975 --> 01:36:16,122
Why is it that when we look at
the account in Genesis,

2356
01:36:16,169 --> 01:36:19,640
that we have a tendency
not to want to do that?

2357
01:36:19,734 --> 01:36:24,046
We have a tendency not to do it
because we're constantly exhorted...

2358
01:36:24,101 --> 01:36:26,101
to not see it that way.

2359
01:36:25,983 --> 01:36:27,327
From the culture around us?

2360
01:36:27,353 --> 01:36:30,313
The culture around us,
uh, from theologians,

2361
01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:33,212
uh, modern theologians
who are trying to,

2362
01:36:33,243 --> 01:36:35,110
some how in their minds,

2363
01:36:35,149 --> 01:36:37,733
fit the truths of Scripture with the...

2364
01:36:37,758 --> 01:36:40,758
- the so-called discoveries of science,
- Uh-huh, uh-huh.

2365
01:36:40,562 --> 01:36:43,562
which if you know anything
about the history of science,

2366
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:46,712
- you know it's incredibly unreliable path.
- Uh-huh, uh-huh.

2367
01:36:46,737 --> 01:36:49,539
So we are constantly bombarded...

2368
01:36:49,617 --> 01:36:53,786
with this message that
we have to adjust our view.

2369
01:36:53,934 --> 01:36:58,192
But I think there are a lot of
Christians who have a sense...

2370
01:36:58,262 --> 01:37:01,373
that the historicity of Genesis...

2371
01:37:01,428 --> 01:37:05,858
is just not that important
to their Christianity.

2372
01:37:05,944 --> 01:37:09,944
I, I think we have been sold
the bill of goods on that.

2373
01:37:08,952 --> 01:37:13,782
When you, somehow,
make those chapters

2374
01:37:13,821 --> 01:37:16,063
a different category altogether,

2375
01:37:16,103 --> 01:37:17,744
and non-historical,

2376
01:37:17,798 --> 01:37:21,798
What, what are you doing to
all of the rest of the Bible?

2377
01:37:20,191 --> 01:37:22,191
The Bible that assumes that is true,

2378
01:37:22,206 --> 01:37:25,019
the Bible that treats it
as historical true,

2379
01:37:25,058 --> 01:37:29,058
and the Bible that refers back to
all of the characters that are there,

2380
01:37:29,043 --> 01:37:32,043
does that then negates
the whole of the Bible?

2381
01:37:31,507 --> 01:37:33,818
Well, yes.

2382
01:37:33,912 --> 01:37:36,427
And that's exactly
what the strategy was

2383
01:37:36,467 --> 01:37:37,873
of the higher critics

2384
01:37:37,927 --> 01:37:39,982
in the 18th and 19th centuries.

2385
01:37:40,031 --> 01:37:41,625
They knew...

2386
01:37:41,796 --> 01:37:45,992
if you could, somehow,
attack the first three...

2387
01:37:46,054 --> 01:37:49,875
or first eleven chapters of Genesis...

2388
01:37:49,984 --> 01:37:51,984
you're done away with the whole thing.

2389
01:37:52,195 --> 01:37:55,705
Well, George, all of this
brings us back in to...

2390
01:37:55,799 --> 01:37:58,166
the notion that the history...

2391
01:37:58,260 --> 01:38:02,963
uh, that is recorded in Genesis
or any true history at all is critical...

2392
01:38:02,988 --> 01:38:06,988
for us, in terms of understanding
what's going on around us.

2393
01:38:06,369 --> 01:38:07,822
Yeah.
In, in fact,...

2394
01:38:07,861 --> 01:38:11,308
it reminds us of how
important history is...

2395
01:38:11,355 --> 01:38:14,761
and anchoring all of
the other human disciplines.

2396
01:38:14,808 --> 01:38:18,693
Uh, it is the history
that helps to inform science.

2397
01:38:18,740 --> 01:38:23,169
So that science can begin
its journey of discovery in the world.

2398
01:38:23,263 --> 01:38:27,234
So what the history does
is it tells us what happened.

2399
01:38:27,515 --> 01:38:30,406
Then what science
attempts to do is...

2400
01:38:30,468 --> 01:38:33,468
it, it asks the question,
well, how did it happen?

2401
01:38:33,492 --> 01:38:35,992
And then,
it, it begins to explore

2402
01:38:36,070 --> 01:38:37,538
the how, the mechanics,

2403
01:38:37,570 --> 01:38:38,906
- the structures
- Hhh.

2404
01:38:38,969 --> 01:38:41,773
uh, that were present in those events.

2405
01:38:41,851 --> 01:38:43,851
If you try to reverse that,

2406
01:38:43,365 --> 01:38:45,592
if you try to make science...

2407
01:38:45,661 --> 01:38:48,802
- uh, saying what actually happened,
- Uh-huh.

2408
01:38:48,872 --> 01:38:52,671
uh, then you, you wind up
having a worldview

2409
01:38:52,726 --> 01:38:56,085
that is constantly shifting
where nothing is certain.

2410
01:38:56,140 --> 01:38:58,233
And moral relativism...

2411
01:38:58,335 --> 01:39:00,991
is the necessary outcome.

2412
01:39:01,397 --> 01:39:03,819
And God has given us that bedrock.

2413
01:39:03,858 --> 01:39:05,858
He has given us that foundation

2414
01:39:05,845 --> 01:39:07,571
in that historical record.

2415
01:39:07,626 --> 01:39:10,626
He has given it to us
in that historical record...

2416
01:39:10,440 --> 01:39:13,751
going all the way back
to Genesis chapter 1...

2417
01:39:13,837 --> 01:39:15,837
- and the garden.
- And the garden.

2418
01:39:17,103 --> 01:39:20,814
In the end, I suppose
we always return home.

2419
01:39:20,905 --> 01:39:23,213
And for me, home is Colorado.

2420
01:39:23,337 --> 01:39:24,754
I always think more clearly...

2421
01:39:24,779 --> 01:39:27,779
when I'm out in the beauty
of God's creation.

2422
01:39:27,902 --> 01:39:31,902
We've been in a lot of places
and seen a lot of things,...

2423
01:39:31,254 --> 01:39:33,394
but considering everything together,...

2424
01:39:33,480 --> 01:39:36,480
it's clear that nothing
in the world makes sense,

2425
01:39:36,459 --> 01:39:39,514
except in the light of Genesis.

2426
01:39:42,170 --> 01:39:44,170
I love being in the mountains,

2427
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:46,367
especially, ones like these.

2428
01:39:46,477 --> 01:39:48,985
They help give us
a good perspective,...

2429
01:39:49,146 --> 01:39:52,143
help us realize
that we're small and...

2430
01:39:52,252 --> 01:39:54,072
finite, and vulnerable.

2431
01:39:54,312 --> 01:39:55,960
They humble us.

2432
01:39:56,195 --> 01:39:59,195
And we need to be humble
because we have...

2433
01:39:58,251 --> 01:40:00,634
a tendency to base our ideas...

2434
01:40:00,713 --> 01:40:02,533
on our own small...

2435
01:40:02,619 --> 01:40:04,354
set of experiences.

2436
01:40:04,556 --> 01:40:09,556
That's why the wisdom of the ages
has told us over and over again...

2437
01:40:08,111 --> 01:40:10,191
to know history.

2438
01:40:10,769 --> 01:40:14,183
Everything that we've done
up to this point...

2439
01:40:14,433 --> 01:40:16,402
has looked at the evidence

2440
01:40:16,449 --> 01:40:19,504
that shows us that
the word of God,...

2441
01:40:19,654 --> 01:40:24,092
the history that has been
laid down for us in Genesis is true.

2442
01:40:24,741 --> 01:40:28,123
God created the world in six days.

2443
01:40:28,436 --> 01:40:31,204
There was  a real Adam,
a real Eve.

2444
01:40:31,243 --> 01:40:33,243
There was a real fall.

2445
01:40:33,431 --> 01:40:35,462
It really was a flood...

2446
01:40:35,719 --> 01:40:38,719
that destroyed the world
and produced all of this.

2447
01:40:38,690 --> 01:40:42,461
It is glorious, but it represents
the judgment of God.

2448
01:40:43,005 --> 01:40:45,126
Everything supports...

2449
01:40:45,306 --> 01:40:47,329
what God has told us.

2450
01:40:47,532 --> 01:40:49,797
Genesis is history.

2451
01:40:50,009 --> 01:40:51,469
True history.